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<blockquote data-quote="salsalover" data-source="post: 3263081" data-attributes="member: 134535">I did read the entire thread.And I&#039;m responding to &quot;your side.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;Your side&quot; for this argument is that America is arrogant and basically bad.&nbsp; I never would have endorsed you avoiding any balance or nuance to your position in order to start a debate (which actually isn&#039;t a good idea for debating), but since you&#039;ve chosen to do that, I have to respond to the position you&#039;re taking in this thread, because that&#039;s what you&#039;ve given all of us to work with.I know you&#039;re an American and that you&#039;ve got some sort of ties to Pakistan; but you never specifically said your race or religion.&nbsp; You could be a white atheist whose step-father is Pakistani, or you could be a Pakistani-American Muslim.This is what you said that set people off:Now as far as women, it&#039;s just a matter of perspective. Women here aren&#039;t really treated any better. Just because we say we treat women better doesn&#039;t mean that&#039;s the case. Yes, in countries like Saudi and many other Arab countries, there are sadly some laws that favor men over women. But women at least aren&#039;t seen as sex objects like they are here. There&#039;s gender segregation, but the U.S. is equally as responsible (just not identical).You suggest that conditions for women are just as good as they are in America and Western Europe.&nbsp; Possibly better because women &quot;aren&#039;t seen as sex objects like they are here.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; That&#039;s the statement that many people, not just me, find objectionable.I&#039;m talking about modern day times.&nbsp; There is not one single modern-day Middle Eastern state besides Israel where religious minorities have places in parliament/congress.And while this is a tangent, things weren&#039;t so rosy prior to 1967 either.&nbsp; There was the allegiance between the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Adolph Hitler:...and there was the invasion of Israel in 1948 by Egypt, Syria, and Jordan.&nbsp; So it&#039;s simply inaccurate to say that Arab populations in the Middle East treated with Jewish minority populations well right up until the 1967 war.&nbsp; That&#039;s not accurate.&nbsp;&nbsp; That&#039;s all I&#039;m going to say on the matter; this isn&#039;t a thread about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This is a total straw man argument.&nbsp; I&#039;m not trying to &quot;impose my cultural views on others&quot; when I criticize intolerance in the modern Middle East.&nbsp; I&#039;m totally happy with people of any race or religion; I&#039;m not okay with cultures where it&#039;s considered socially acceptable to kill your daughter because she held a boy&#039;s hand.&nbsp; There&#039;s a difference.The UK, Spain, Australia, Indonesia, etc don&#039;t have positive relations with Israel and they&#039;re targeted by Muslim extremists just as much.&nbsp; Mainstream Muslim populations don&#039;t have positive relations with Israel and they&#039;re the single biggest victim of Muslim extremist terrorism.&nbsp; Blaming Muslim extremist terrorism on our relationship with Israel would only make sense if we were the only target, or even the primary target, of Muslim extremist terrorism.&nbsp; We aren&#039;t.Why do I need to go to the Middle East to know that the Muslim population in the United States is growing rapidly?&nbsp; And why does it make me &quot;a true ignorant&quot; to say that it&#039;s growing, and draw conclusions from that growth?&quot;Despite such difficulties, a comprehensive survey of American mosque leaders released Wednesday reveals that the number of mosques in the country has grown tremendously, with more than 900 new centers being established since 2000. Another finding from the survey reveals that compared to the turn of the millennium, fewer Muslims see America as &#039;hostile&#039; to Islam today.&quot;Islam In America: Mosques See Dramatic Increase In Just Over A Decade, According To Muslim SurveyA survey quoted later in that article says that the number of Americans attending services at mosques has grown by 30% over the past ten years.&nbsp; Doesn&#039;t sound to me like a mass-exodus out of the USA.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="salsalover, post: 3263081, member: 134535"] I did read the entire thread. And I'm responding to "your side." "Your side" for this argument is that America is arrogant and basically bad. I never would have endorsed you avoiding any balance or nuance to your position in order to start a debate (which actually isn't a good idea for debating), but since you've chosen to do that, I have to respond to the position you're taking in this thread, because that's what you've given all of us to work with. I know you're an American and that you've got some sort of ties to Pakistan; but you never specifically said your race or religion. You could be a white atheist whose step-father is Pakistani, or you could be a Pakistani-American Muslim. This is what you said that set people off: Now as far as women, it's just a matter of perspective. Women here aren't really treated any better. Just because we say we treat women better doesn't mean that's the case. Yes, in countries like Saudi and many other Arab countries, there are sadly some laws that favor men over women. But women at least aren't seen as sex objects like they are here. There's gender segregation, but the U.S. is equally as responsible (just not identical). You suggest that conditions for women are just as good as they are in America and Western Europe. Possibly better because women "aren't seen as sex objects like they are here." That's the statement that many people, not just me, find objectionable. I'm talking about modern day times. There is not one single modern-day Middle Eastern state besides Israel where religious minorities have places in parliament/congress. And while this is a tangent, things weren't so rosy prior to 1967 either. There was the allegiance between the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Adolph Hitler: ...and there was the invasion of Israel in 1948 by Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. So it's simply inaccurate to say that Arab populations in the Middle East treated with Jewish minority populations well right up until the 1967 war. That's not accurate. That's all I'm going to say on the matter; this isn't a thread about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This is a total straw man argument. I'm not trying to "impose my cultural views on others" when I criticize intolerance in the modern Middle East. I'm totally happy with people of any race or religion; I'm not okay with cultures where it's considered socially acceptable to kill your daughter because she held a boy's hand. There's a difference. The UK, Spain, Australia, Indonesia, etc don't have positive relations with Israel and they're targeted by Muslim extremists just as much. Mainstream Muslim populations don't have positive relations with Israel and they're the single biggest victim of Muslim extremist terrorism. Blaming Muslim extremist terrorism on our relationship with Israel would only make sense if we were the only target, or even the primary target, of Muslim extremist terrorism. We aren't. Why do I need to go to the Middle East to know that the Muslim population in the United States is growing rapidly? And why does it make me "a true ignorant" to say that it's growing, and draw conclusions from that growth? "Despite such difficulties, a comprehensive survey of American mosque leaders released Wednesday reveals that the number of mosques in the country has grown tremendously, with more than 900 new centers being established since 2000. Another finding from the survey reveals that compared to the turn of the millennium, fewer Muslims see America as 'hostile' to Islam today." Islam In America: Mosques See Dramatic Increase In Just Over A Decade, According To Muslim Survey A survey quoted later in that article says that the number of Americans attending services at mosques has grown by 30% over the past ten years. Doesn't sound to me like a mass-exodus out of the USA. [/QUOTE]

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