Abortion is Wrong

[chickensuit21]

Forgive me if I missed you saying that earlier in the thread, but you saying that changes what you're saying a little bit vs. the majority of people who just throw their own speculations out there. I wasn't meaning to come off like I was against your opinion, just stating the obvious and that it would probably do any male with an opinion on the emotional effects of an abortion to relay some further information to legitimize their point of view.

 

[bbaconb3]

Nah, I didn't mention it before. No worries, it's good you spurred CrowZer0 into posting those links for our edification

 

[IwantmorethanAverage]

The links you've provided don't really support the view that abortion is intrinsically psychologically harmful- your first says that 25.7% had distress after six months (as compared to 22.5% with miscarriages) and after five years 20.5% had distress. Meanwhile, the wikipedia article you cited says

"Systematic reviews of the scientific literature have concluded that that there are no difference in the long-term mental health of women who obtain induced abortions as compared to women in appropriate control groups.[4] While some studies have reported a statistical correlation between abortion and clinical depression, anxiety, suicidal behaviors, or adverse effects on women's sexual functions for a small number of women, these studies are typically methodologically flawed and fail to account for confounding factors. Higher-quality studies have consistently found no causal relationship between abortion and mental-health problems.[4] The correlations observed in some studies may be explained by pre-existing social circumstances and emotional health.[17] Various factors, such as emotional attachment to the pregnancy, lack of support, and conservative views on abortion, may increase the likelihood of experiencing negative reactions."

Third link didn't work for me.

 

[ShaunaK]

Mea culpa!

 

[dylansmomma1]

Emotional attachment to a pregnancy? Who could imagine such a thing?

MItch

 

[BeIeGePeOePePeA]

If you're including the emotional response of women who have terminated a pregnancy due to malformations of the fetus or genetic diseases, but you're discussing the emotional response of women who have utilized abortion because a pregnancy or child might be inconvenient, then yeah, I'd say you're looking at different phenomena.

 

[janesmithdp]

"Inconvenient" is an interesting way of putting it.

You make it sound equivalent to getting a corn removed. Maybe it is for some women, but I've never met one.

 

[javedhm]

And I'd honestly say you're being somewhat dogmatic or naive. Aborting an inconvenient child simply isn't emotionally neutral.

I'm not pro-life, I'm very much in the woman's right to choose camp, but you have to be careful not to downplay the significance of aborting a pregnancy, planned for or not, for many women.

As Ero said, best talk to women about it

Mitch

 

[al2165]

I should have been more careful with my wording - I'm not trying to maintain that it is an emotionally neutral act, I question whether it has an effect on psychological health. The link did not support that it has an effect on psychological health - nor did the long term and large scale studies conducted by Johns Hopkins or the APA. I support separating out factors which may affect a woman's psychological health, before making a blanket statement that abortion has an effect on women's psychological health. vv



I've met several! I guess to continue the conversation, I'd like to nail down what you meant by the effect on psychological health, because I think we may just be talking past each other.

 

[HallieA]

I was referring to this in the Wiki you quoted:

Various factors, such as emotional attachment to the pregnancy, lack of support, and conservative views on abortion, may increase the likelihood of experiencing negative reactions

So, as we agree that emotional attachment is very likely, it is similarly likely to have some effect, no?

Cold logic makes abortion seem like a logical, easy, reasoned choice that will have no repercussions. It rarely is for the actual women involved and whilst we shouldn't make blanket statements one way we should be equally sensitive and aware in the other direction.

Mitch

 

[GlamGurl]

The thing is, I've been aquainted with a women who had a lot (in the region of 5), but even though she put on a front of being hard-nosed and indifferent about it, she was clearly in a mess psychologically.

I'm not saying it will induce psychosis, maybe saying something like "it is generally an upsetting and distressing experience". I was using the term "psychological" in the more general sense of the psyche, not specifically about diagnosable conditions.

 

[MandyD]

Nope. I never said you did. You just stated, "if someone has to constantly have abortions I would suggest looking at alternative forms of contraception because it is not healthy," as though those people actually exist. They don't. I didn't actually believe you believe they exist either, but I wanted to curve the conversation away from Stupid Town before we reached the exit.



Respectable abortion clinics always offer psychological counseling, despite being underfunded in the US. There is clearly a correlation. They aren't doing it because they enjoy finding counselors who will work the peanuts and/or charity.

 

[JlEazy]

Depends upon the methodology of the paper in question and what they've categorized as 'emotional attachment.' That particular sentence was uncited, but I believe it's a reference to the APA paper which states:

"Women who are terminating pregnancies that are wanted and personally meaningful, who lack support from their partner or parents for the abortion, or who have more conflicting feelings or are less sure of their decision before hand may be a relatively higher risk for negative consequences."

Full paper available here: http://155.97.32.9/~bbenham/Phil%207570%20Website/aAdler1990.pdf

The passage about personal attachment reads as follows:

"Major et al. found that among 247 first-trimester abortion patients, women who described their pregnancies as "highly meaningful" compared to those who found their pregnancy to be less meaningful reported more physical complaints immediately after the abortion and anticipated more negative consequences."

Although interesting data, I don't think it can be used to speak to whether or not women are generally psychologically harmed by abortions.

 

[LiamM]

Philosoraptor, what I'm curious about, is as a biologist what is YOUR opinion on when life begins? (I hope you're willing to share on the topic.)

 

[honky275]

Still trying to keep up with you in chat! As it strikes me, the issue of life is a red herring. Skin cells are alive, but no one's upset when you skin your knee. I think what we're concerned about is a more folk science notion of personhood, which is a much more difficult critter to delineate. In terms of when that begins, heck, I don't know - on some measurements I'd say only post birth, but I wouldn't like how that judgment might guide policy.

 

[chrisbowe82]

Yes pray do tell.

 

[PeacefulWarlord]

Thank you Philosoraptor. Much obliged.

If Righty wouldn't mind sharing, I'd love to hear her opinion too, as yet another person trained as a biologist?

(I would naturally welcome Frodo's opinion as well of course, but I suspect she won't offer it with her role as a community moderator.)

 

[buddy2331]

I DID >:[

 

[Lexy:]]

Darn it, you mentioned me by name and now I feel obliged to respond.

You have to remember that biologists are people too (hard to believe I know). But it means we can be as emotionally attached to a certain side of a topic such as this the same as everything else.

During my studies I have never been taught or come across any definitive information regarding the moment which life starts – at least for humans.

In terms of when a new organism is created or formed it occurs at conception as it’s an entity that is genetically distinct from either parent, at least in humans. But there will always be argument that as this new organism does not have control over it's own fate and is still physically attached to it's mother is it really its own entity? So when looking at things biologically you could probably either have the stance that 'life' begins at conception or when that entity is able to survive without being connected to its mother and even then it's arguable. And each side of the abortion 'dabate' will grab at those and use it to support their side. So you will find classically trained biologists of each side of the abortion debate and of course at every stage in between.

Also keep in mind that biologists don't just deal with humans – in fact most directly do not. In terms of the creation of life maofftopicls are quite complicated what with the whole gestational period and stuff. But biologists also contend with other types of organisms which can make things super complicated when you include these principles in the debate.

Let’s take marsupials – they are still maofftopicls yet give birth to what is effectively the human equivalent of an embryo and then it ‘gestates’ inside the pouch. That little thing is in no way capable or surviving outside the pouch for any period of time. And then what about birds, reptiles and monotremes – how do you classify the start of life when considering eggs?

So yeah, looking to biology to give you an answer for this one isn’t going to solve this debate as there isn’t really a catch all answer that is capable of covering all kinds of life. When looking at humans in particular you are always going to have to take ethics into account which brings us back to the beginning.

This is all too complicated for me. Give me reproduction by binary fission or mitosis any day.

 

[Ciara]

I most certainly am!