Abortion is Wrong
- Thread starter aslan
- Start date
MrsJeffHardye[Iwish]
New member
I'm not going to argue religion with you because we both know that neither of us is going to suddenly change his mind. So let's not.
However, from a purely rational perspective: If there is no objective right or wrong over which you will be judged, the only reason to not do X, is that the majority of people have the ability to put you in prison or kill you for doing X. Your only reason to not do X would be that the risk of getting caught does not outweigh wanting to do X.
That's a line of reasoning which is typical for psychopaths.
Of course, you can argue that you don't need to believe in a deity to have a sense of right and wrong -and I totally agree- but in a way, you're still taking on faith that there is an objective measurement of right and wrong. Which in a way is as irrational as believing that right or wrong are derived from said deity.
However, from a purely rational perspective: If there is no objective right or wrong over which you will be judged, the only reason to not do X, is that the majority of people have the ability to put you in prison or kill you for doing X. Your only reason to not do X would be that the risk of getting caught does not outweigh wanting to do X.
That's a line of reasoning which is typical for psychopaths.
Of course, you can argue that you don't need to believe in a deity to have a sense of right and wrong -and I totally agree- but in a way, you're still taking on faith that there is an objective measurement of right and wrong. Which in a way is as irrational as believing that right or wrong are derived from said deity.
AlexisInfectious®
Active member
Kind of like Charlie sheen in 1 and a half men.
JoaniePony
Member
I can't be arsed to carry on debating properly and honeslty, others are writing things much better than I could. However, I disagree with this true/untrue thing. I agree everyone has the right to believe what they want, and there's a lot of things that I don't think there are strict answers (morality for one example) but I do think that the notion every idea and opinion and equally valid is false. As Dara O'Brien said once: "A professor of dentistry for 20 years does not have a discussion with someone who removes his teeth with string and a door"
GeOrGiAPeAcHGaNgStA
New member
I don't claim it wouldn't be. I'm not saying people with strong pedigrees are infallible, only that not every opinion is equally valid. Which is more valid is somewhat harder to define since it'll depend on your personal views which one you give more weight to (depending on the subject, science and maths have stricter areas you can be "right" in compared to philosophy) but it still doesn't make all ideas and beliefs equal.
Nonsense. Sorry, but that really is nonsense.
Judgment is not required.
Why would I require a completely objective measure of right and wrong? Even if I do, it's easily reasoned out.
In simple terms: there is enjoyment, and there is suffering. Enjoyment is right and good, and suffering is bad and wrong. Exactly what said enjoyment and suffering are may be open to debate around the edges, but no one will argue that the principles here are not correct.
A very simple moral code seeks to maximise enjoyment, and minimise suffering.
So long as you remember to consider that humans are social animals who function best as part of a group, that particular moral code is enough for almost all situations. There will always be fuzzy areas, but in any individual's life they're unlikely to hit ones it doesn't address.
My reason for not doing X where, let's say, X is killing someone who annoys me is not because I am afraid of getting caught - it is because there is an inherent dislike of murder instilled in me by evolution. Murder is bad because it weakens the group, it causes an increase in suffering and a decrease in enjoyment. I would avoid someone who annoys me rather than kill them.
Psychopaths follow the line of reasoning you specified, but they rather tend to miss out on the group angle of it - hence the problems.
I don't really need an objective measure of right and wrong. I have positive and negative feedback, which are much better, more situational, and far better for learning from than simply measuring up against a half-score of rules on a stone tablet.
For example, my method covers all the coofftopicndments quite happily - most of the actions they prohibit would cause negative feedback more than positive (except idol worshipping - go ahead on that one). It also covers much more complex, subtle situations like lending a friend money or buying them a drink when they're short. Doing so causes a better time for everyone, and is a minimal outlay of resources for me (i.e. requires little or no suffering for said increase in enjoyment).
I've kind of lost track now. It's been a long day so I apologise if the above is a bit rambley.
Judgment is not required.
Why would I require a completely objective measure of right and wrong? Even if I do, it's easily reasoned out.
In simple terms: there is enjoyment, and there is suffering. Enjoyment is right and good, and suffering is bad and wrong. Exactly what said enjoyment and suffering are may be open to debate around the edges, but no one will argue that the principles here are not correct.
A very simple moral code seeks to maximise enjoyment, and minimise suffering.
So long as you remember to consider that humans are social animals who function best as part of a group, that particular moral code is enough for almost all situations. There will always be fuzzy areas, but in any individual's life they're unlikely to hit ones it doesn't address.
My reason for not doing X where, let's say, X is killing someone who annoys me is not because I am afraid of getting caught - it is because there is an inherent dislike of murder instilled in me by evolution. Murder is bad because it weakens the group, it causes an increase in suffering and a decrease in enjoyment. I would avoid someone who annoys me rather than kill them.
Psychopaths follow the line of reasoning you specified, but they rather tend to miss out on the group angle of it - hence the problems.
I don't really need an objective measure of right and wrong. I have positive and negative feedback, which are much better, more situational, and far better for learning from than simply measuring up against a half-score of rules on a stone tablet.
For example, my method covers all the coofftopicndments quite happily - most of the actions they prohibit would cause negative feedback more than positive (except idol worshipping - go ahead on that one). It also covers much more complex, subtle situations like lending a friend money or buying them a drink when they're short. Doing so causes a better time for everyone, and is a minimal outlay of resources for me (i.e. requires little or no suffering for said increase in enjoyment).
I've kind of lost track now. It's been a long day so I apologise if the above is a bit rambley.
newlywed24
Member
We have objective descriptions of other animal behaviors, such as feeding, courtship, territory defense, etc. I think ethical behavior is a certain type of behavior that facilitates living within a group to the profit of all of the group's members.
If telling someone that you will pray for them means somehow that I/whoever expects some type of gratification, then why do they openly pray for those in church, or ask for prayer requests? I think you are getting prayer mixed up with giving in which the Bible says to give in secret. Me giving some homeless man money and then going and telling everyone that I did is wrong. That IS the "look at me" part you are discussing.
With Biblical principals comes a lot of responsibility. If I knew there was no God, I never said that I would be this horrible person. However, there is conviction in my life when I do/did something wrong. I smoked for about 10-12 years, but i've been off of that because of my convictions that the body is a temple... it was given as a gift (such as the topic we are on which has strayed WAYYYYY off now) and it's wrong to tear it down.
For instance, you think twice before something very simple like littering, or cussing. No one said that it had to be some huge crime that we were talking about here.
For instance, you think twice before something very simple like littering, or cussing. No one said that it had to be some huge crime that we were talking about here.
Really... hasn't this all gone on long enough? We're quite off topic of abortion and i've spent the last however many pages on discussing my beliefs. I just believe what I believe. I never said I was perfect, I never claimed to be better than anyone. This is what I believe... it won't change and there's no point in continuing down this path. I'm glad everyone here is happy with who they are and what they believe in. That's great and I do wish everyone the best in their life.
Conradical
Member
Saved, there is an easy way for you to end this. Stop posting in this thread. We may keep going on because there have been several interesting side discussions but if you don't read this thread it can't bother you.
One of the best lessons I learned when I was a member of Al-Anon and it is:
It's none of my business what other people think of me.
One of the best lessons I learned when I was a member of Al-Anon and it is:
It's none of my business what other people think of me.
ziyegeng1994
New member
But it is your business what people think
AvidBooklover
New member
On a forum, or even in social activity, it is your business what people think or else there will never be any type of discussion.
Now wheter or not you may agree with what they are thinking is a different point
(Note: Thinking, not self thought-but speaking what's on the mind)
Now wheter or not you may agree with what they are thinking is a different point
(Note: Thinking, not self thought-but speaking what's on the mind)
I would like to think that even though many don't agree with me that they feel that I at least try to set a good example. We all learn, we all make mistakes and we all will keep making them... for me, I like to try to learn from my mistakes knowing that I will keep making them but still strive to be a better person each day.
I had an NDE. I'm still an agnostic. What it did was get me interested in reading about angels and NDE's but I am today agnostic. Maybe because of the NDE, I dont know. I dont know how I was able to see myself lying on the pool bottom when I almost drowned and I was unconscious. But I did. I saw a light too. They knew I had an NDE because the lifeguard saw my mouth move and my lips form the words "there's a girl on the bottom of the pool did you see her did you get her" and they told my mom I had an out of body experience. So when I was a preteen I because one of millions of have the phenomenon.
And so it begins.
And so it begins.