casual abortion
- Thread starter fayt84
- Start date
celtic_dragon02
Member
If you're vehemently anti abortion, why does incest make a difference? It's not the zygote's fault that someone impregnated their sister, daughter, mother etc etc? Should that cell cluster have to die because your society says it's wrong to sleep with your relatives? Are you saying your values are more important than that organic mass' right to live?!?!?
Personally, I'm in favour of early abortion (I think if it's legally allowed too late then you're leaving the floodgates open for legal post-natal abortion). If I'd accidentally made my girlfriend pregnant while still at university I would not have been financially or in any other way capable of raising a child and I wouldn't have put a girl with aspirations of her own in the situation of having a child to raise while still trying to carve out her place in the world. Having said that, I still have the biological drive to ...um...well, you know - I'm not Mr Promiscuous but I'm not gonna "just say no" either.
Personally, I'm in favour of early abortion (I think if it's legally allowed too late then you're leaving the floodgates open for legal post-natal abortion). If I'd accidentally made my girlfriend pregnant while still at university I would not have been financially or in any other way capable of raising a child and I wouldn't have put a girl with aspirations of her own in the situation of having a child to raise while still trying to carve out her place in the world. Having said that, I still have the biological drive to ...um...well, you know - I'm not Mr Promiscuous but I'm not gonna "just say no" either.
would you mind clarifying what you mean by causal liberty?
also what has incest got to do with it, or are you suggesting that whilst non incestuous babies have a right to life, incesuous babies should die?
I think that you're pretty unashamedly using language like slaugter to spark emotions into a subject where the correct desicion is often one where emotion is left aside, however hard it might be..
The debate really hinges on whether you consider an unborn foetus to be a life with rights, or just a cluster of cells - the problem comes in when you draw the line...we'd all agree that a fully formed, full term baby is a human being.. but is an egg, a sperm - is a cluster of 4 cells? 8? 512? at what point does the cluster of cells become a human?
also what has incest got to do with it, or are you suggesting that whilst non incestuous babies have a right to life, incesuous babies should die?
I think that you're pretty unashamedly using language like slaugter to spark emotions into a subject where the correct desicion is often one where emotion is left aside, however hard it might be..
The debate really hinges on whether you consider an unborn foetus to be a life with rights, or just a cluster of cells - the problem comes in when you draw the line...we'd all agree that a fully formed, full term baby is a human being.. but is an egg, a sperm - is a cluster of 4 cells? 8? 512? at what point does the cluster of cells become a human?
mccoyblues
Member
Ever hear the term spontaneous abortion? You might know it better as miscarriage (in the first 20 weeks). Do you have any idea how common these are? The period your significant other missed last month very well may have been a miscarriage. Look in a medical book not a religious book for a change.
The reference to "casual abortion" IS inflaofftopictory rhetoric. Contrary to the propaganda an abortion is the last alternative they look for. Presented with all the alternatives we have today you think that someone would choose an invasive medical procedure? Let’s not forget that you class women as uninformed, thoughtless and self-serving by assuming they choose have abortions with out a second thought.
The reference to "casual abortion" IS inflaofftopictory rhetoric. Contrary to the propaganda an abortion is the last alternative they look for. Presented with all the alternatives we have today you think that someone would choose an invasive medical procedure? Let’s not forget that you class women as uninformed, thoughtless and self-serving by assuming they choose have abortions with out a second thought.
CuriousGirl
Member
We were actually discussing this in one of my tutorials recently in my perspective on science/history, philosophy and ethics of science Education module. Life is actually a social constuct and when life begins depends on the culture you belong to and your thoughts on the impending baby/bunch of cells. As i understand it (please correct me if i'm wrong) the orthodox Muslim view is that a child is not alive until it breaths, which is why nurses will often give artificial respiration to a still born Muslim child so that it has lived and the mother can have a full burrial and grieving rights. In christian religions it begins from the moment of conception, and the same is true for any parents of any faiths or lack there of that want a child. In the medical sence a fetus is considered viable and therefor 'alive' (at least on a concious level i think - again correctiong on the technical part of this) from about 26 weeks.
However if someones life circumstance are incompatable for a child then it's just a bunch of cells that could cause more hassle than they're worth. I know some people reading this may take a strong objection to how i've phrased it, but i'm trying to be as inoffence as possible. If a child is born at the 'wrong' time for a couple or person it could cause resentment on the child. Yes there is the option of going full term with the pregnancy and then giving the child up for adoption. But there are other issues related to that which i'm not going to bring up right now. (It's late and i thought i was ukeing at a grading when it turns out i was being graded!)
Personally i think that abortion should remain an option that is available. People may not agree with it but it's not like people are being forced to abort children. If we ban abortion what's going to be next? The contraceptive pill? Condoms? IUD's (both with and without the hormonal bits)? These options prevent people from being in a situation that would mean they might have to contemplate an abortion. The coil mearly prevents implantation in the womb, it doesn't stop the act of fetilisation/conception so potentially a 'life' is created each month that doesn't happen because it can't implant and develope.
Also i think the OP could have used some less emotionally loaded words to open up a dicussion like this. The OP has made it clear what they're own views are and has possibly polerised this from the start.
Moony
However if someones life circumstance are incompatable for a child then it's just a bunch of cells that could cause more hassle than they're worth. I know some people reading this may take a strong objection to how i've phrased it, but i'm trying to be as inoffence as possible. If a child is born at the 'wrong' time for a couple or person it could cause resentment on the child. Yes there is the option of going full term with the pregnancy and then giving the child up for adoption. But there are other issues related to that which i'm not going to bring up right now. (It's late and i thought i was ukeing at a grading when it turns out i was being graded!)
Personally i think that abortion should remain an option that is available. People may not agree with it but it's not like people are being forced to abort children. If we ban abortion what's going to be next? The contraceptive pill? Condoms? IUD's (both with and without the hormonal bits)? These options prevent people from being in a situation that would mean they might have to contemplate an abortion. The coil mearly prevents implantation in the womb, it doesn't stop the act of fetilisation/conception so potentially a 'life' is created each month that doesn't happen because it can't implant and develope.
Also i think the OP could have used some less emotionally loaded words to open up a dicussion like this. The OP has made it clear what they're own views are and has possibly polerised this from the start.
Moony
SummerSista
New member
Not to mention the risk involved for the woman and her ability to concieve again should it go wrong. abortion is not an issue that's taken lightly.
Moony
Moony
BILLYTHEGOOT
Member
Incest as a form of rape.
Casual liberty as somone partying and then oops! guess I can just terminate it. Or, I dont have the career path established that I need in life, guess I'll just terminate it until I'm responsible. That kind of casual liberty.
x
no, not miscarage: abortion. Hundreds of thousands of babies killed on purpose, thats what I mean by abortion. There is nothing casual about a miscarriage.
Casual liberty as somone partying and then oops! guess I can just terminate it. Or, I dont have the career path established that I need in life, guess I'll just terminate it until I'm responsible. That kind of casual liberty.
x
no, not miscarage: abortion. Hundreds of thousands of babies killed on purpose, thats what I mean by abortion. There is nothing casual about a miscarriage.
Bringing a baby into this world when you cannot even look after yourself is worse that aborting it.
You see young mothers who can't even feed and look after themselves properly, some of whom are drug addicts, how on earth can they take care of a baby. Too many are born into poverty and squalors.
Anyone who calls themselves ‘pro-life’ surely wouldn’t want a child to be brought up in terrible conditions because that is not my definition of a life.
In my opinion you need to be mentally, socially and financially ready.
You see young mothers who can't even feed and look after themselves properly, some of whom are drug addicts, how on earth can they take care of a baby. Too many are born into poverty and squalors.
Anyone who calls themselves ‘pro-life’ surely wouldn’t want a child to be brought up in terrible conditions because that is not my definition of a life.
In my opinion you need to be mentally, socially and financially ready.
coaltruck344
New member
ok. despite the fact the drugs such as the morning after pill mean no-one should ever have to do that (even if the "go out partying and oops! have unprotected sex whilst not on the pill") and frankly i can't see why anyone would get pregnant, within a relationship, are responsible enough to want a long term career and have a abortion but there we go..IF and this is a very long if *IF* either of those situations happened i still feel it is the right of the mother to decided if she wishes to carry that foetus. There comes a point after which it is an independant life and the desicion to abort is taken away from the mother..
Should someone be irreponsible enough to get pregnant due to partying too hard (which is an odd one if you ask me) then it could be argued that it would be unfair on the potential child (and society) to let it be raised by someone so irresponsible.
Why the differentiation, after all a miscarrige is both more common and just as fatal to the foetus...
Is your objection just to "casual" abortions as you put it...would you consider it ok, if someone within a stable relationship decided to abort (despite wanting a child) based on medical information that the child will be severly disabled? Or if not, under what circumstance would you consider it ok to have an abortion, if you only object to "casual" abortions.
oh and Incest as a form of rape, what? what does that mean. So if a woman is raped by a stranger she cannot have an abortion (that would be "casual" ) but if she's raped by her father she can? wheres the logic in that?
Should someone be irreponsible enough to get pregnant due to partying too hard (which is an odd one if you ask me) then it could be argued that it would be unfair on the potential child (and society) to let it be raised by someone so irresponsible.
Why the differentiation, after all a miscarrige is both more common and just as fatal to the foetus...
Is your objection just to "casual" abortions as you put it...would you consider it ok, if someone within a stable relationship decided to abort (despite wanting a child) based on medical information that the child will be severly disabled? Or if not, under what circumstance would you consider it ok to have an abortion, if you only object to "casual" abortions.
oh and Incest as a form of rape, what? what does that mean. So if a woman is raped by a stranger she cannot have an abortion (that would be "casual" ) but if she's raped by her father she can? wheres the logic in that?
youngochoa
New member
Care to tell us where you are trying to go with this Endeavour ? Because looking at your other thread I can imagine their is a punch line. Maybe, listen to god, don't be sleeping around and get married. Well, sadly human nature isn't always like that.
As for children, I find it sad when they get brought into this world and their parents have no clue how to handle them, are too young or have to rely on their own families to help them. You see that often in this country sadly. What it makes me wonder though is if they get taught about contraceptions at all but looking at past threads it seems to be on the increase.
Concerning incest: Don't you think thats a bit of a radical example you have chosen their Endeavour ? I haven't heard of any abortion cases in this country related to incest yet. How come you brought this up ? Rape is even more common than incest rape. So that should be a bigger issue here.
Christian
As for children, I find it sad when they get brought into this world and their parents have no clue how to handle them, are too young or have to rely on their own families to help them. You see that often in this country sadly. What it makes me wonder though is if they get taught about contraceptions at all but looking at past threads it seems to be on the increase.
Concerning incest: Don't you think thats a bit of a radical example you have chosen their Endeavour ? I haven't heard of any abortion cases in this country related to incest yet. How come you brought this up ? Rape is even more common than incest rape. So that should be a bigger issue here.
Christian
newyorkgiants_logan
New member
What I was trying to show is that there is no guarantee of life past conception. Abortions occur naturally all the time, especially at the early stages of pregnancy.
I've never met anyone who just flippantly goes, "oh well, I'll just get an abortion". There are thousands of already born infants that die daily from hunger, disease etc... and your worried about clusters of cells and organisms that don't even have a nervous system yet.
If the parent is not ready to be a parent yet, then it is probably for the best as it rarely turns out well (without early intervention). We have prisons full of these types of stories.
I've never met anyone who just flippantly goes, "oh well, I'll just get an abortion". There are thousands of already born infants that die daily from hunger, disease etc... and your worried about clusters of cells and organisms that don't even have a nervous system yet.
If the parent is not ready to be a parent yet, then it is probably for the best as it rarely turns out well (without early intervention). We have prisons full of these types of stories.
I personally dont see why anyone cares. Its the mothers choice, just like its always been (in some cases the fathers ) I dont see why people care about gay marriage. I dont see why people care so much about smoking in restraunts. I dont see why people care about the myriad of other stupid things to worry about that dont involve them.
Things arent illegal because you dont like them. Unfortunetly, the more people stand up and say "I dont like when people smoke around me!" the more the gov't wants to shut them up, and the more freedom is ripped from our lives. Get over it.
Should all kids be thrown in dumpsters? No. Should all mothers be forced to birth? No. The easiest, and hardest answer is to fence sit. I cant see one situation in which one way has absolute supremecy without negative drawbacks.
Things arent illegal because you dont like them. Unfortunetly, the more people stand up and say "I dont like when people smoke around me!" the more the gov't wants to shut them up, and the more freedom is ripped from our lives. Get over it.
Should all kids be thrown in dumpsters? No. Should all mothers be forced to birth? No. The easiest, and hardest answer is to fence sit. I cant see one situation in which one way has absolute supremecy without negative drawbacks.
xtraordinary2020
New member
i agree (except for the smoking bit because that DOES affect me if someone is puffing away in the same bar... luckily they banned cancer sticks from bars/restaurants/clubs/etc earlier this year)
whether or not someone has an abortion is NOBODY elses concern. the CHOICE should be there. if you dont know the circumstances behind why someone would get an abortion (and i would bet that unless you are omnipotent you don't) then you have no reason to get involved. this is why they dont take public opinion polls in murder trials- the general public doesnt know jack.
whether or not someone has an abortion is NOBODY elses concern. the CHOICE should be there. if you dont know the circumstances behind why someone would get an abortion (and i would bet that unless you are omnipotent you don't) then you have no reason to get involved. this is why they dont take public opinion polls in murder trials- the general public doesnt know jack.
Moony, i think you are mistaken on the Muslim view. In Islam a fetus receives its soul after 120 days. It is technically alive with its soul at 120 days, but it is always a potential life, so it is protected from day 1, at conception.
Heh. Thats what I think. Don't sleep around. Listen to God. Wait till you are married. Have morals. Unfortunately morals seem to have become a thing of the past. What a pity.
If you are having sex before marriage, especially with all these contraceptives floating around, its your own fault that you got pregnant. Take some responsibility for your actions.
As for the child, i think its a strange argument to say that "the child will not have as many opportunites in this world, so its better to abort." Thats synonomous with "This newborn/1 year old doesn't have enough food, so lets kill him. He will be better off. He would have had a bad life anyway." That's at least how it is in my book.
"Human nature isnt like that"
Well, this seems like a difference in philosophies between people. In American culture, the idea is to go along with human nature and do whatever you are compelled to do, as long as it doesn't break the law. In many other cultures, at least their philosophies, as well as among some isolated Americans these days, the idea is that human nature makes you weak and evil, so you try to transcend it. You may say its okay to have sex before marriage, drink, etc., while I say that it makes me weak and a bad person. Of course this is a loaded paragraph in favor of my ideas. It has to do with my religious teaching and what I define as right or wrong.
For example, if I can't control my sexual urges, my urges to eat, etc., how am I better than an animal?
Aren't you all martial artists? Have some power over yourselves. Face your mistakes instead of running from them. Learn some discipline.
Heh. Thats what I think. Don't sleep around. Listen to God. Wait till you are married. Have morals. Unfortunately morals seem to have become a thing of the past. What a pity.
If you are having sex before marriage, especially with all these contraceptives floating around, its your own fault that you got pregnant. Take some responsibility for your actions.
As for the child, i think its a strange argument to say that "the child will not have as many opportunites in this world, so its better to abort." Thats synonomous with "This newborn/1 year old doesn't have enough food, so lets kill him. He will be better off. He would have had a bad life anyway." That's at least how it is in my book.
"Human nature isnt like that"
Well, this seems like a difference in philosophies between people. In American culture, the idea is to go along with human nature and do whatever you are compelled to do, as long as it doesn't break the law. In many other cultures, at least their philosophies, as well as among some isolated Americans these days, the idea is that human nature makes you weak and evil, so you try to transcend it. You may say its okay to have sex before marriage, drink, etc., while I say that it makes me weak and a bad person. Of course this is a loaded paragraph in favor of my ideas. It has to do with my religious teaching and what I define as right or wrong.
For example, if I can't control my sexual urges, my urges to eat, etc., how am I better than an animal?
Aren't you all martial artists? Have some power over yourselves. Face your mistakes instead of running from them. Learn some discipline.
IWantWhiteCastle
New member
I think the removal of smoking from public places is legitimate and in a different class from the other subjects. While abortion does not harm the public's health, smoking does. I do not smoke, so I don't want all that crap in my lungs. If you smoke and want lung cancer or want to die of asphyxiation, then go ahead, but I don't want to increase my chances. Secondhand smoke is more toxic than what smokers breathe in.
jennidear06
New member
There has been NO definite proof that second hand smoke causes anything but coughing. Look all you want. For every peice you find that says it causes cancer, I'll show you a study that shows it doesnt.
The only reason it was banned is because people dont like it. I HATE smoking. But like I said earlier, just because I dont like it, doesnt mean its wrong.
The only reason it was banned is because people dont like it. I HATE smoking. But like I said earlier, just because I dont like it, doesnt mean its wrong.