Cheating in exams

Sorry, aml01_ph! I've been busy so I haven't been able to visit this new thread.

Anyway, to put things in context, that post that aml01_ph about about "cheating isn't cheating" was in reaction to a statement I made in the "?Why do Filipinos prefer foreign martial arts?" thread, notably post #152 (the pertinent parts of which I quote below; it's rather long-winded, sorry):



Well, my actual post was longer and aml01_ph reacted not just to the cheating topic. There are issues which I still cordially disagree with aml01_ph (mostly on historical interpretation and national polity), but on this thread I will disagree with him/her (ano nga ba talaga?) on the belief that cheating is not cheating if not caught. First let me quote again the pertinent passage:



First of all, passing because you cheated (whether you were caught or not) and passing because you deserved it are two entirely different things. As an educator, there are real reasons why we give evaluate students and give grades, that is, to provide an accurate representation of that students capabilities. The reason why I think that thinking and allowing others to think that "cheating is not cheating unless caught" is dangerous because it gives a skewed and inaccurate picture of the capabilities of students. In fact, allowing students to think that cheating is one of the valid ways of getting an education is a lie, a fraud and a hoax.

Even if the cheaters are never caught, yes, they will have to face the consequences of their cheating, the most notable of which is mediocrity. We actually go to school for a reason: to learn stuff. To pretend that one has learned stuff and graduate is only fooling oneself—and, I might add, the reason behind the national plague of mediocrity in the Philippines.

And, just because a lot of Pinoys have forgotten what they learned in school doesn't mean we should use that as an excuse not to learn for real. It is, in fact, the reason why Pinoys have allowed themselves to forget, because they have deluded themselves into thinking that all that schooling wasn't important and merely a means to an ends. I mean, I used to teach Business Administration graduates who cannot even write a decent feasibility study—they end up merely presenting statistical data of questionable usefulness without even taking a side! You should see how embarrassed they are when they are asked why such and such data was useful or pertinent. They cannot even express why. They were just following a formula from out of a textbook. Yet they somehow got through high school because they cheated in their English exams.

And that's just one instance.



C'mon, man! You can't tell a person who's used to cheating in class to suddenly clean his act up just because it's an "important" exam! The reason why there are college entrance examinations is to see if these incoming freshmen can "cut" it. I used to teach in a state-sponsored school, and it is a big financial headache for us when truckloads of freshman come in, subsidized by the state, who all drop out before graduating (because they suddenly find that their cheating methods aren't good enough to get them by) or who do graduate, but don't deserve it because they haven't been properly trained but have circumvented the "quality control" because they cheated well. They turn out to be the dumb and stupid professionals that one is unfortunate to meet.

If you still don't agree, well, the next time some mediocre dentist screws up his job, not just on you, but on almost all his patients, well... I guess "most of the information taught [to him] in [school have been] forgotten anyway by the time [he got into his career]," and you can be sure that he definitely wasn't caught cheating.

And that's just a dentist. Think about all the nurses we send overseas who have to take the Board exam an average of three times before they pass. Or, heck! Think about the other professionals running about as if they know what they are doing, with diplomas framed and their transcript of records showing lovely but inaccurate grades, having forgotten a lot of what they have learned anyway. A Filipino saying sums it all: kaya tayo hindi umaasenso.


Sorry for the long rant, p're.
 
I think my attitude towards cheating in coursework was most influenced by something I saw in my first year of university.

Two guy where working together on a project, not cheating but just working together and helping each other, the result of it was that they ended up producing code which was similar.

When the marks for the work where returned they found one had failed the coursework withg a score of 35% and the other had passed with a mark of, I kid you not, 85%.

They went and asked if the low mark guy had been done for plagarism, he hadnt so they went to the module leader with their coursework and asked him why the marks difference had occured and what he thought the marks should be.

He told them that the marks should have been if he where marking the courseworks, the same, but it was in fact the demonstrators of the course (Postgrad students) where doing it and the difference was simply because they had been marked by two different people.

The mistake wasn't fixed and the uni demanded the guy resit the module. He had to go through the board of examiners to stop it happening.
 
About 30 years ago I had 10 0'levels to revise for. I was rubbish at the compulsory language of French, and the 'mocks' were fast approaching.

To avoid wasting good cram-time, me and a mate broke in and borrowed the exam paper, copied and replaced it undetected. Subsequently, I passed the mock exam (no hassel from teacher thereafter) and promptly 'forgot' French.

After I failed the real exam in spectacular fashion, the teacher was shocked "I can't understand it, you did so well in the mock?".

Being now of reformed character, IMHO it is not adviseable to cheat as in not undergoing a test you are not tested, and thus have merely been wasting precious time.
 
I'll just have a go on your points.



Of course. Cheating is not a valid way of getting an education. I'll go into that later, but for now let's just agree on something.



Frankly, I think that the reason for this plague of mediocrity we are now experiencing has nothing to do with cheating but more to do with government policy. If not why do you there is a steady stream of Filipino labor going abroad, most of which eventually end up migrating out of the country.



I think you've blown this out of proportion. Engineers who are involved in power generation cannot be usually depended upon to fix a refrigerator or to design a house. It is also unclear on whether those BA graduates in your example cheated or just recieved extremely lousy training.




I don't exactly expect them to clean their act, it is rather more of a hope. What I do expect from them though is to evaluate all the risks. This I think is the most important lesson one can get from deciding whether to cheat or not. A person has to know risks of both success and failure.



Again you're blowing the "forgetting" coment out of proportion. Consider that in the Philippines the 1st 2 or 3 years of any BA or BS course deals with topics that are classified as general education. Only later do you take the subjects you can actually use in a career related to your chosen course. I know of a veterinary doctor and a forester who had to take a programming course (C+ machine language, compiling etc.). I don't think it is likely that these people would find writing software pertinent in their chosen field. Why not hire a programmer instead?

GH, passing a college entrance exam only represents the potential of excellence. It doesn't show if the person who passed would have the industry to go the long haul regardless of whether said person cheated, lucky or brilliant.
 
Ive cheated on almost every test and exam I have ever taken. And I'm not ashamed of it.

Education isnt about the marks you get on your report card. I, long ago, accepted the fact that I am a relatively smart person with the work ethic of a housecat. I understand that unless I'm lucky, or if I somehow do well in college, in the normal scope of "job markets" I'm not someone any employer would want to hire. I accepted that there is a good chance I will end up making 40k a year for the rest of my life. Its cool with me. But I also know that when I want to do something, whatever it may be, I get it done.

This little rant, (poorly written, sorry) is kind of my view on education. Self-education is more important to me than how my instructors grade my intelligence. I know what I am capable of , and I know what I have to work on. Cheating is only wrong concerning the morals of the general public. I found it a way to survive, to get through what society has given to me with the least amount of work on my part.

I could write forever about how the above can be translated into my MA career, but I'm sure you guys can draw your own conclusions based on that. With that said:

DONT CHEAT! You'll get yourself in trouble.

-Ryan.
 
AKA: It's ok to cheat?



AKA: It's not OK to cheat?

Did I miss something here, or is your post blatantly hypocritical?

It just seems like you've totally sold yourself short, resigned yourself to a mediocre salary/job. Instead of working hard and learning lots, you've accepted a poor work ethic, cheated/are cheating your way through school, and are now suffering/will suffer because if it? Have you been to college or not? How old are you?

Sorry, but your post made no sense.
 
My girlfriend has exams all week for her extractive metalurgy course.
Anyhoo, was on the phone to her tonight and she said she had got the exam papers off the net so could study them. I sort of "went off" at her untill she explained that she meant to say that she had the exam papers for last years exams (which is perfectly legit, as they're used as study guides).

I hate it when people cheat.
 
I've got mixed feelings about this one.

One the one hand, if you cheat your way to a qualification then chances are you'll get found out eventually. And I wouldn't like to think that the doctor who was going to operate on me had cheated their exams!

On the other hand, there is precious little honesty in the 'world of work', so why not give yourself a head start? In business you'll spend the rest of your career with people trying to push ahead of you, so you might as well forget about 'playing fair'!
 
^ That is a good point.

just to throw another thing into the mix; it all depends how you define cheating. Writing something on your arm and copying in the exam is pure cheating. But to me getting hold of the questions and then studying them is just being resoucful (spelling? )- a quality that is needed in many walks of life.
 
I don't see the problem with cheating on certain exams. I cheated on my music lit exam because I don't think that knowing a full biography of Beethoven or Haydn or Mozart by heart is going to help me with my own career in any way. It would be wasteful NOT to cheat on an exam like that.
 
That is crap. Just because you don't need to know it to do job X that you want when you graduate from high school/college/whatever doesn't mean that you shouldn't know stuff like that.

First off, if you learn stuff like this, it will separate you from the ignorant. It will give you some culture, some good party facts. Hell, it might even help you in your career. What if you go to your first interview for job X, and your interviewer is playing Beethoven's 4th symphony. He would be mighty impressed if you could name it by ear, and talk about what was going on in beethovens life at the time.

If you think specific knowledge about an applicable subject is all that you will need to succeed in the relevant area, you are wrong.



The skills that are required to succeed in school are the same skills that are required to succeed in the "real world" (in general), so if you are honest with yourself and do your best to develop those skills while you are in school, you will be more likely to succeed in the real world. If you cheat, you won't be building those skills, and you'll be less likely to succeed.
 
Whenever and where ever the oppurtunity arises. I dont take exams to test myself, i take exams to attain a qualification, and whatever it takes to pass goes, as long as i dont get caught. Writing stuff on my hand is pretty common for me. Its not like i can write a whole answer on my hand, just enough to jog my memory a bit.

i wouldnt cheat on something that really meant something to me (eg i'd never be involved in fight fixing if i become a pro-thai boxer), but state imposed exams have no moral significance to me, so cheatings not going to lose me any sleep
 
How did it not make sense. I dont advocate cheating. Just because I did it doesnt mean anything.

And I'm not selling myself short. I'm not "accepting" anything. I'm not settling for anything and I'm not suffering, and i wont suffer. Its a mindset, that I am comfortable with. I would much MUCH rather have fun and make less than have a troublesome life and make more. Thats not to say I cant do both, but back to the issue of cheating, it was a tool I used to pass, what I saw, a trivial pursuit of knowledge that I wasnt craving. If you want to know the basics of engineering or the advanced learnings of theology, I find there are a lot better places to start than high school. Do I want other people to feel this way? Not really. I dont trust in the fact that people understand this way of thinking. Like you for instance. They might see it as laziness or a lesser ambition, therefore ending up on the street or in a fast food restraunt. On the other hand, I see it as education even greater than the general public. Education that cant be taught in school. I am ambitious and I am determined, but I am not a mindless zombie floating through life. To quote Bruce Lee:
-What is the point of education if you in yourself are not intelligent? If you are not creative?
-Education consists in cultivation of intelligence (not cunning, passing exams, etc.)
-Education: to discover but not merely to imitate.

Perhaps you should read some Krishnamurti to understand where I am coming from. My philosophy isnt for everyone. In fact, it relies heavily on it NOT being for everyone.

I am in college right now at the moment.

-Ryan.
 
Says who? Says you? Is that a fact? Did you do a study? Did it show that 100% of people who cheat dont succeed? No, eh? So you're just flapping your mouth on a moral that you SEEM to take as fact. You took this feeling to heart and think it is the only way.

There are people that are rich, poor, happy, sad, all over the world. It isnt predetermined through school. Of course statistics show that more money comes from higher education. But what does this mean? Does it mean that people who dont goto college are dumb? No. Does it mean that people that get Masters in 5 things are smart? Nope. All it shows is the ambition and determination to succeed, and the ability to know how to study and take exams. Thats good. But its not the end of it all.

If a guy never went to school his entire life, never learned to read, never learned anything, will he be sad in life? Will he be poor? Does being poor mean he is sad? Does money=happiness now? Is that what motivates you? The thought that more education leads to more money which leads to more happiness? Or maybe the guy never went to school, but instead is self taught. He knows ALL the things you know, including inward understanding because he had to teach it to himself. So he has a 1 up on you with experience, a 1 up on you with ambition, a 1 up on you with determination, a 1 up on you with the ability to over come situations. Meanwhile you memorized the glossary in the back of a science book.
 
I agree that learning the skills is essential. But your not going to be judged for the rest of life on how well you learned the skills, but on how well you did in the exam. Once you get into a job you'll be judged on how well you can do the work. Generally, your exam results just help you get an interview.

All I'm really saying is that the moral argument against cheating in exams seems less compelling when you get out into the 'real' world and see how people trample all over more deserving candiates in order to get ahead!
 
I cheat sometimes. We all do, DON't LIE NOW! It doesn't have to be exam.
So what if you cheat? Some exams are useless at least to say, so why not cheat?
 
Did I say that 100% of people who cheat don't succeed? What is it that you seem to think I take as fact? I think what is the only way? To succeed in school and use that as a tool to succeed in life?

No, but since I was presented with the opportunity to go to college, I tried my damndest to do well. I used the opportunity to educate as a tool to pursue a fullfilling and lucrative carreer in a subject that I enjoy. There are other ways to pursue success, and if presented with a different opportunity, I would have done my damndest to do well at that too.



So now I have to ask what YOUR point is. What is your point?
That success in school won't make you happy or rich? Duh.
That money != happiness? Duh.
Furthermore, if you just do the bare minimum, a college degree only proves that you are willing to go through a specified set of motions in order to get something that you want. HOWEVER, you can take a lot more from school, and the people who succeed in school are more likely to succeed in real life.



Did I say ANY of that stuff? No. But I'll now tell you what I think. You don't need money to be happy. If you are unhappy, it doesn't matter if you have money or not. If you are unhappy and have money, it will be a little easier to pretend like you are happy.

I think you should fill your belly first and then worry about doing the things that you love. I, personally, want to have a lucrative job that affords me a comfortable living, and do the things that I love on the side, and maybe pursue a career doing something that I love once I have my feet under me. That means I got an engineering degree, work a good job, and train in martial arts all evening. That's how I like it.

P.S. It also means I can afford quality martial arts instruction without worrying about it taking food off my plate.



Oooooh! Wow! You've really got me there.

1. Part of college is teaching yourself. It's like martial arts. You learn some basic stuff in class, and your teacher gives you a good outline of things that you have to learn at home. It's up to you to teach yourself these things. It's like you said: some of the best training isn't done in the dojo. Plus, inward understanding (if you mean, knowing ones self, wisdom, whatever) doesn't come from self-teaching ALONE.
2. He has a 1 up with experience how? In my case, I would have a 1 up on a self taught engineer, because I've had access to plenty of semi-modern technology, advanced methods, equipment, etc.
3. Ambition and determination? Not necessarily. For some people, this will be the case, because many people who are in college are AS not in love with what they do as self taught people are. In order to just learn engineering on your own, you have to love it, and if you love it, you will be more likely to learn more, and learn it better. However, if you love it just as much as the guy who teaches himself, AND go to college, then you've got something special.

If you are so big on learning on your own, maybe you advocate learning martial arts from books and videos as well? Methinks it follows the same principle.



Once you get the degree, and get 2-5 years out of college, the grades don't mean ANYTHING anymore, and it is the skills that you acquired in school that really matter. The grades I made in college don't mean squat anymore, and I'm not even a year out of college. What matters now is: can I bring this project in on time or ahead of schedule? Is the work I do complete, concise, and thorough?

Your exam results help you get the interview, but they don't help you get the position. Once you are in there, you have to impress prospective employers with your know-how, your glibness, your work ethic, and any other good qualities that you can express in 30 minutes or less.

I won't make a moral argument for cheating in exams. It's stupid to argue that. What I will argue is: if you cheat, you will not be acquiring skills that can be used as tools to succeed in the real world.



I have cheated before and here is what it resulted in:

1. I lost some points on an exam because I didn't understand the material as well as I could have.
2. I didn't learn something valuable, that I potentially could have learned.
3. I missed an opportunity to develop skills that I could be using now in the real world.
 
I've only quoted the last bit of your post, because I broadly agree completely with what you are saying about education. But I just wanted to point out that the points you make here only apply if the person has failed to study as they should have, and then cheated in the exam. It wouldn't apply if the person has worked really hard and then cheated in the exam to boost their grades.
 
I have cheated before and here is what it resulted in:

1. I lost some points on an exam because I didn't understand the material as well as I could have.
2. I didn't learn something valuable, that I potentially could have learned.
3. I missed an opportunity to develop skills that I could be using now in the real world.
Here is what my cheating resulted in:

1. I gained some points thanks to cheating that otherwise i woudlnt get.
2. I learned something valuable instead of wasting that time to learn something i wont need,and
3. I didn't miss an opportunity to develop skills i need in real world.

come on, dont tell me you never had a question where you said: why the hell i need this? (and be right later about it)
 
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