Good things about Islam?

I found quite a bit wrong with it, thank you very much, and was looking for additional evidence to prove the author incorrect.

But keep going; you've been wrong about me so many times on so many topics there's no reason for you to ruin your streak now.

At least Slip made an attempt to answer the question: all you've done is perpetuate the author's perception that there's nothing to say beyond the PC "that's so ignorant" he was complaining about in the first place. Go look in the mirror pitch, and repeat after me: "hello pot? this is kettle. You're black". Why don't you put forth some effort in answering the question and get back to us when you have both your brain cells engaged?
 
if you will note i poseted 5 links that cover everything slip said in his posts BEFORE slip posted them.

i assume you did not look tho right?
 
I agree with you completely: you can't divorce the time and culture from the people (remind me to throw this argument back in your face when we finally get around discussing the blame islam needs to take for being the #1 cause of violence in the world). It's precisely because of what you said there should be a clear link between the teachings of mohamed and the achievements of the Muslim world that you cited. Yet, there is no direct link in any of the vast material you presented. At best, there is only a hint that the Muslim/Arabic reverence of history may be the reason so much classical literature and philosophy was preserved in Arabia when Europeans simply burned it as heretical. But even there, Arab culture was past oriented, revereing history before mohamed and the influence of islam which could also account for same thing. What I would like to see is the clear directive of mohamed to preserve and study history or at least the evidence that mohamed did so as an example Muslims follow.

BTW, the article was lifted out of a Law Enforcement sensitive report about anti-islamic hate groups, so unless you want to fax me your Law Enforcement credentials, I can't give you the link.
 
Hi MAP'pers,
Incredibly interesting thread with some subtle arguments on both sides of the coin, ( to coin a phrase aaaaaaaaaaaaah ). I believe the ordinary, average man in the street has always been mostly concerned with earning an honest dollar, dinar,shekel, yen, pound, euro, pound. etc to feed his family, then to pray to his GOD and prophets as the case may be, or maybe not. However, at some point in time or circumstance, all religions are highjacked by corrupt and criminally deluded individuals.

Islam HAS given us Bin Laden, but Catholicism gave us the Spanish Inquisition, secularism Saddam Hussein and modern Christianity, Bush and Blair,
( Well they certainly hang their coat tails on it ! ). All are completely bonkers and all will go down in history as mass murderers. Here is an interesting conjecture !? which one was not bankrolled by big business ? Which one has not lied and deceived millions aided by a corrupt media ? and which mass murderer has murdered the least ?

Nearly all murder is in the name of religion or politics, truly Barabus is alive and well. I read a statistic today, 158 brit soldiers killed so far in the Afghanstan / Iraq compaign. Thousands more american troops, ( every one, a tragic young life unfulfilled ), yet you cannot wring out of either government how many innocent Iraqii men, woman and children were killed during the inital bombing campaign !!! When the cruise missiles and the daisey cutters went in,they were indiscriminate, scores of tens of thousands of innocents were killed. And, yes maybe Israel had the right to self defence, of course, but I think no civilised human being can deny the disproportionate response suffered by Israel and Bush and Blairs deafening silence.

look at the Palestinian situation, innocents killed on a daily basis. My partner is half Arab. An arabs land is more important to them than their children. For if they have no land, they cannot feed their children, democracy is way down the scale and is virtually foreign to them and anyway, do people really believe they live in freedom ? The state and big business brainwash us from the moment we wake up until the moment we go to sleep ! The damage done to the world by people like Bush and Blair will last for generations. It is absolutely no suprise to me the Islamic world hates the west so much. We invade and occupy their lands, force democracy down their throats at gunpoint, and steal their resources or at least, pay a pittance. When was the last time an Islamic state invaded a Christian country and tried to force feed it Islam ?

Many years ago, after an operation, I had a disscussion with an eminent surgeon. He asked me who I thought had the best healthcare in the world !
Not Britain, I answered........France ? Sweden ? Switzerland ? No he replied, Iraq.
He told me people could go public or private but as he often worked there, he could personally vouch for it. University eduction was also available for all.
Now look at Iraq, a once great nation about to implode into genocide........
What's the answer, I don't know, I'm not a sage, wise man, just the average guy in the street trying to feed my family, but..... I think.......a little more tolerance of other peoples beliefs, customs, rituals and aspirations might be a good place to start ?

Jaae
 
You act as though there is no such thing as non-religious terrorism.

Once again you seem to be prime to ignore history and merely blame religion as the sole factor in all man's huge list of stupid acts. I never once said that religion is totally blameless, though you would love to think that I have. Yet I am also a student of history and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that religion played and plays much more minor roles in human conflict then you are giving it credit for. Basically, you are completely ignoring the major underlying causes of major conflicts in favor of minor causes. If you were to address poverty, quality of life issues (reliable food, income, education and public health) and nationalism you would find that religion would drop away from the table without being dealt with. But you would rather make that the main issue. And I can say, historically speaking, trying to deal with religion while ignoring the above issues will provide NO advancement towards peace and understanding or stability- which is what we really need. If the region were POLITICALLY stable, we would not be having problems with the Middle East.

But attitudes such as yours, no matter how they fall on the pro or anti religion scale are what is preventing real movement forward in the Middle East.
 
Ahmen or Allah akbar,
I totally agree and basically that's what I was trying to put across, athough not as succinctly as yourself. Religion is just an idea of belief, it is some men's greed, lust for power and avarice that has been the root of nearly all of men's folly's and evils.
Religion, politics are and have always been corrupted by the few while the majority and especially the innocents have had to pay for it. A starving child in Somalia, whatever it's religion, will have no inkling that it's plight is largely destined by half a dozen suits in a World bank commitee meeting room making decisions that fundamentally affect whether millions live or starve. We all should bear some responsibility and drive out the corrupt. Bush and Blair will do for starters, but I'm afraid it's the strata below them that will continue along with big business, decide the fate of the rest of us, whatever arguments or discussions we have.

Jaae.
John Lennon had a few good ideas............
1.) No religion
2.) power to the people
3.) give peace a chance
4.)................... I live in hope !
 
BWAHAHAHAA!!!!!

Riiiiiight.
This clowns stuff is all over the net. One only has to Google his name to find any number of ridiculous sites offering his stuff. Many of them don't appear to know that this guy isn't even Japanese. He's an IT tech based out of New York City who is a part time writer and a full time pro Israel supporter.

As far as I'm aware I've yet to find any shred of evidence that he's taken even the least bit seriously in the academic community let alone anywhere outside of the pro Zionist camps.

Hardly top secret super duper law enforcement stuff.




In the post up above on this same page I believe the term your looking for was actually 'ad nauseum'... but feel free to insert the term comprehensive and historically accurate.

That being said - if you're looking for academic information on this sort of thing by someone that is actually credible and repsected in the academic world... I'd imagine that Edward Said is a pretty good place to start reading.

Here is a fairly comprehensive list:


The book by the title of Orientalism (republished?) has recently been updated and is a very good place to start. Though it is neccessarily complex and not for the feint of heart.
 
I think it is important to look beyond the purely religious role of the religion (!) and consider the wider social impact which religions (including Islam) have had in the development of the modern world.

For medieval Europe the idea of Christendom was a powerful unifying idea - although it never stopped us from fighting each other incessantly for centuries! But the existance of a common religion was the only unifying force we had in the centuries before mass communications.

The Church as an instituition was for centuries the only source of education and the only repository of knowledge - not only religious, but secular. (For example, much of the technical 'know-how' which would eventually drive the early Industrial Revolution in England was originally developed within the monasteries.)

While I am not as familiar with the history of the countries within the Islamic world, it seems reasonable to believe that Islam played a similar role, both as a unifying factor and as a provider of education and knowledge. And of course, the Islamic world was far larger than Christendom.

You could of course argue how much any of this was a 'good thing', but the fact is that it has shaped the world we live in, for better or worse. Islam, like Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, etc. are integral parts of the world we live in - whether you believe in their doctrines or not.
 
Spot on there Johnno.

Of course the first important thing that springs to mind is that the art of brewing Ale was perfected by monks of many different orders. God Bless Them!
 
Here's an interesting article pertaining to the topic by Edward Said. Why super duper law enforcement would be looking to an idiot like Yashiko Sagamori and not covering the work of an internationally recognized and published author and intellectual like Edward Said speaks volumes about their predisposition and their intention I believe.:

(Note: reading this on-screen will be a bit of an eye strain... I suggest for those of you who are interested... print it out. It makes it a far more enjoyable read. )




posted January 1, 1998 (April 26, 1980 issue)

source: http://www.thenation.com/doc/19800426/19800426said
 
Many social scientists (as Johnno noted) have discussed the critical roles that religions and religious philosophy have plaid in the creation and alignment of societies. Perhaps one of the most canonical works is Max Weber's "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism." In that work Weber crafts a story about how the rise of prodestant groups can be tied to the shift towards a free market ecomony. Likewise an excellent arguement can be drawn to the social role of black churches in the American Civil Rights Movement -- in particular the Southern Baptist Organization.

The fact is that relgious groups are also cultural group and they have a big influence on the evolution of societies. Both for the positive and the negative. That's the problem with the vulgar counter religious views that get expressed here at map. They're just plain historically and culturally uninformed.

Actually, Gutenberg's printing process (the press itself was a converted Wine press) was created to make money. It just happened that the bible was the most common book in demand at the time. The book market was then driven by the works of Luther for a short time (another cultural/religious upheaval that was also reflexively fed by the nacsent printing industry). However, it didn't take long for secular publishing to quickly surpass religious texts.

But please don't propigate the rumor that Gutenburg was traying to spread the good word. He was trying to line his pockets.

I'd suggest a slight change there -- that interpretation of Islam as a religion. Islam as it was practiced at its height in Persia and in Spain was a very different version than what is being practiced in Madrassas in areas of Iran today (as an example). Just as what's being practiced in those Madrassas in Iran is (despite some folks protests) very different than what's being practiced at the Mosque here in Rochester NY. They might all have the same name, but they're very different in many respects.

The tragedy of Islam is how far it has regressed in many places. But I should also note that regression far transcends Islam. If you accept that religions are cultural institutions that effect the development of societies, then it becomes a two way street -- namely that other societal factors effect the religion in return. That's why simply saying this is all about Islam is a falicy as well.



Considering that DCCombatives notes that this was from a report monitoring hate speech, I wouldn't expect that this was in there as unbiased information. Rather it was (obviously) an example of what said anti-islamic hate groups are writing?

BTW, nice reference of Said.

- Matt
 
Is this why the Arabs send their own children on suicide missions? Well son, I love you, but the back 40 is way more important than your life. Sounds like peace and love all around to me.
 
Possibly..............but then Dubya doesn't supply them with F16's. If some one was trying to kill you, your children, destroy your home, take your land wouldn't you and yours be a little miffed ?


Jaae.
 
Yes, but there is a difference in someone coming to my house and trying to take it as opposed to me going into a mall, restraurant, other crowded place and blowing up as many of a certain race or nationality that I can. Or in some cases how about sucide bombers who have blow up fellow Muslims who aren't Islamic enough.
 
I sincerely doubt separation of church and state is based on that comment at all. Political expediency for increasingly powerful royalty and other leaders wishing to free themselves from the power of an interfering Rome may be significantly more important in that movement...

Mitch
 
You've posted some good stuff on this thread Slip, I especially liked the banjo remark, had me in tears.

But seriously, I'm very glad you posted Edward Said and especially Orientalism, easily my favourite work by one of my favourite scholars. I think everyone should read it, and now more than ever.

Here are some good things Islam has given me:

My friend Aofftopicr (from Jordan), superb boxer and Karate-ka, and all-round caring guy.
My friend Sahar (from Afganistan), scholar of political science passionate human rights activist, president of the Auckland branch of Students for Justice in Palestine.
My friend Amrita (from the U.A.E), engineer (the good kind ) and Amnesty International co-worker.
My friend Zaeem (from Palestine), lecturer in sociology at Waikato University and avid human rights campaigner.

Their religion is an important part of each one of them, and I am extremely grateful for who they are and all they do.
 
Personally, I think Orientalism Revisited is in many ways superior.

- Matt
 
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