Good things about Islam?
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JoeSchmo77
New member
ah! ok i see what you said now!
prideasaquincy
Member
Better is a subjective term at best though. Democracy works for you because it's all in first hand reality you've ever known. It is as culturally as much a part of you whatever other stereotypical things might be... be that apple pie or being able to flip on the radio and tune in some Led Zeppelin. Those are just some off the top of the head examples assuming you're American... but you get the idea.
The concept of democracy for many people in Middle Eastern and South Asian countries is not culturally commonplace - not to mention socio-politically.
The premise in many of the cultures doesn't even show up on a family scale let alone on a civil scale.
Which really makes me wonder about the wisdom of trying to impose democracy on a people who didn't ask for it and are willing to risk civil war to have the right to determine their own fate via whatever mechanism they chose - even if that is NOT democracy. If that's tribal councils and the traditional ways that decisions have been made in those regions... then so be it. When imposing democracy is piggybacked with a haphazard war that is being fought for very uncertain causes... I doubt anything more than continued bloodshed will come out of it.
The concept of democracy as most people flog it about really is a foreign concept for many people in the non western world. One that not many have asked for.... yet they keep getting it rammed down their throat by politicians and mega-corporations that have vested financial interests at heart.
Same garbage different day.
The current American administration learned next to nothing from Vietnam and they seem to know next to nothing now about the current debacle. Democracy certainly isn't in very good hands given the present administration.
But I digress - less we spiral radically off topic here.
(did Slip just say that?!?! )
The concept of democracy for many people in Middle Eastern and South Asian countries is not culturally commonplace - not to mention socio-politically.
The premise in many of the cultures doesn't even show up on a family scale let alone on a civil scale.
Which really makes me wonder about the wisdom of trying to impose democracy on a people who didn't ask for it and are willing to risk civil war to have the right to determine their own fate via whatever mechanism they chose - even if that is NOT democracy. If that's tribal councils and the traditional ways that decisions have been made in those regions... then so be it. When imposing democracy is piggybacked with a haphazard war that is being fought for very uncertain causes... I doubt anything more than continued bloodshed will come out of it.
The concept of democracy as most people flog it about really is a foreign concept for many people in the non western world. One that not many have asked for.... yet they keep getting it rammed down their throat by politicians and mega-corporations that have vested financial interests at heart.
Same garbage different day.
The current American administration learned next to nothing from Vietnam and they seem to know next to nothing now about the current debacle. Democracy certainly isn't in very good hands given the present administration.
But I digress - less we spiral radically off topic here.
(did Slip just say that?!?! )
CactusFlower
Member
ok thats great, but making a stupid claim before or after a sadistic one doesn't help much. again, theres no way to misinterprit something as direct as "Kill them now" . Not "wait a minute....kill them now".
Not "Kill them now...i'm perfect so its ok". Its sadistic and wrong no matter what you put in front of it.
In fact i think what he said was something to the affect of "if they don't want me to rule over them, kill them for me"
Not "Kill them now...i'm perfect so its ok". Its sadistic and wrong no matter what you put in front of it.
In fact i think what he said was something to the affect of "if they don't want me to rule over them, kill them for me"
questionlegend
New member
tekkengod,
IT'S GRAofftopicR TIME!!!
Do us a favour and edit that into English. It's giving me a headache trying to work out what the hell you're trying to say.
Cheers.
IT'S GRAofftopicR TIME!!!
Do us a favour and edit that into English. It's giving me a headache trying to work out what the hell you're trying to say.
Cheers.
icemaster316_2001
Member
NOOO! the graofftopicr police will NEVER catch me! ok i seperated it a bit and threw in some periods. better?
AlexisInfectious®
Active member
But it does account for a number of suicide attacks from groups like:
- Indian Sikhs (not Islamic)
- Kurds (including Secular and Christians) in Turkey
- Japanese Kamazees (not Islamic)
Note that Pope concludes “Religion plays a role in suicide terrorism, but mainly in the context of national resistance” and not Islam per se but “the dynamics of religious difference” are what matter (166-67).
It's a short, dense essay in Reflections on Exile and Other Essays (Convergences: Inventories of the Present) -- it sums up Orientalism and then moves it forward quite a ways.
As far as 911 being solely religiously motivated -- man it's nice to rely on right wing talk radio for everything. Fact -- Majority of the hijackers were Saudi. Fact -- Al Quieda's shift towards an obsession with the "far enemy" (us) coincides with the establishment of perminant US Military bases in Saudi Arabia after GW1. The notion of "Infidels" at home has as much to do with us being Western and in their country as it does with our Religions. Fact -- Suadi Arabia has one of the most repressive top down dictatoriships in that region. And there is a significant gap between have and have nots (and even between Have's with power and Have's without power). There is a reason that Saudi Arabia has been exporting it's radical youth to fight the "close enemy" for generations -- they don't want a civil war within thier own country.
Likewise, there is a reason that our Occupation of Iraq has become a rallying cry for global terror -- and it isn't just religion. I've never denied that Religion is a factor here. But throwing around utter crap like 911 was completely religiously motivated shows a vulgar desire to stay ignorant in the face of overwhelming research that this is "Just about Religion."
Might I suggest books like:
The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11
The afor mention Dying to win
Journey of the Jihadist
- Matt
- Indian Sikhs (not Islamic)
- Kurds (including Secular and Christians) in Turkey
- Japanese Kamazees (not Islamic)
Note that Pope concludes “Religion plays a role in suicide terrorism, but mainly in the context of national resistance” and not Islam per se but “the dynamics of religious difference” are what matter (166-67).
It's a short, dense essay in Reflections on Exile and Other Essays (Convergences: Inventories of the Present) -- it sums up Orientalism and then moves it forward quite a ways.
As far as 911 being solely religiously motivated -- man it's nice to rely on right wing talk radio for everything. Fact -- Majority of the hijackers were Saudi. Fact -- Al Quieda's shift towards an obsession with the "far enemy" (us) coincides with the establishment of perminant US Military bases in Saudi Arabia after GW1. The notion of "Infidels" at home has as much to do with us being Western and in their country as it does with our Religions. Fact -- Suadi Arabia has one of the most repressive top down dictatoriships in that region. And there is a significant gap between have and have nots (and even between Have's with power and Have's without power). There is a reason that Saudi Arabia has been exporting it's radical youth to fight the "close enemy" for generations -- they don't want a civil war within thier own country.
Likewise, there is a reason that our Occupation of Iraq has become a rallying cry for global terror -- and it isn't just religion. I've never denied that Religion is a factor here. But throwing around utter crap like 911 was completely religiously motivated shows a vulgar desire to stay ignorant in the face of overwhelming research that this is "Just about Religion."
Might I suggest books like:
The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11
The afor mention Dying to win
Journey of the Jihadist
- Matt
TakingAdvantaget
New member
ahh... thanks for that. I'm gonna have to track that one down.
ATLHAWKSFAN
Member
It's a great read -- epsecially becaus he so wonderfully skewers the notions of both objectivism and subjectivism as philisophical concepts.
- Matt
- Matt
danieldadog
Member
Yep,
Half of us will be on a CIA hitlist whilst the other half will be on an Al Qeada shitlist........................religion wont even come into it !?
Jaae.
Yikes.......
Half of us will be on a CIA hitlist whilst the other half will be on an Al Qeada shitlist........................religion wont even come into it !?
Jaae.
Yikes.......
As someone who spent a number of years operating in Northern Ireland as well as UN peace keeping in the Baltic’s and Cyprus I feel I'm qualified sufficiently to say that it doesn't matter what religion we discuss [insert your faith here] There will always be fundamentalism/extremism involved.
I've seen (indeed operated in) several religiously fuelled conflicts since 1981, and it matters not which religion we discuss or the type of people involved; they're all as bad as each other. It isn't the religion per sé which is the problem, but the individuals themselves who want to manipulate the context and basis of those faiths to suit their own mindless ends.
Regards
Dave
I've seen (indeed operated in) several religiously fuelled conflicts since 1981, and it matters not which religion we discuss or the type of people involved; they're all as bad as each other. It isn't the religion per sé which is the problem, but the individuals themselves who want to manipulate the context and basis of those faiths to suit their own mindless ends.
Regards
Dave
nickthaniel1
Member
No. I’m simply saying the suicide bombing is clearly the result of religious belief. Of course occupation is the motivation in planning attacks, but commiting your self to being a suicide bomber requires a specific convection that derives from religious belief. If occupation was enough to get people to form death cults and blow themselves up then we would see the like of the Tibetan Buddhists, who have undergone occupation and torture not that dissimilar to Iraqis, carrying out similar suicide attacks. I am NOT saying that occupation does not cause violence, it does. Nor am I saying religion is the sole cause of violence, it isn’t.
I agree. I’m not focusing entirely on Islam, but rather on faith based beliefs in general. Our actions are significantly influence if not entirely derived on our beliefs, or perception of reality; hence we should ensure that our beliefs map onto reality. We can do this with evidence; hence I’m against believing things in spite of no evidence or contrary to evidence.
My main point is that in some cases religion is the major cause of something, such as suicide bombing. While other factors do have their part I feel many try to put down the influence religion has. To refer to 9/11 as an example… one of the major differences between the west and al-Qaeda is religion, this in turn affects the politics. al-Qaeda despise the fact that we do not conform to their religion which they are so convinced of. This difference resulted in their attack, and the terrorist willing to kills themselves.
Certainly. But it is arbitrary and to some extent irrelevant whether something is good or bad. The point is that it is not based on evidence or worse is against existing evidence. If we dignify belief on faith - belief without evidence, and if we dignify holy books as a valid source of belief, then we can’t criticize someone’s specific beliefs simply because we disagree with them. Whether the belief is good or bad does not making it justified, so it’s merely cherry-picking to allow some unjustified beliefs, but not others. Osama bin Laden’s perception of the Koran is no less justified or rational that any other believers.
Yes, but as a whole they were attacking a culture that did not conform to their religious beliefs.
I agree. I’m not focusing entirely on Islam, but rather on faith based beliefs in general. Our actions are significantly influence if not entirely derived on our beliefs, or perception of reality; hence we should ensure that our beliefs map onto reality. We can do this with evidence; hence I’m against believing things in spite of no evidence or contrary to evidence.
My main point is that in some cases religion is the major cause of something, such as suicide bombing. While other factors do have their part I feel many try to put down the influence religion has. To refer to 9/11 as an example… one of the major differences between the west and al-Qaeda is religion, this in turn affects the politics. al-Qaeda despise the fact that we do not conform to their religion which they are so convinced of. This difference resulted in their attack, and the terrorist willing to kills themselves.
Certainly. But it is arbitrary and to some extent irrelevant whether something is good or bad. The point is that it is not based on evidence or worse is against existing evidence. If we dignify belief on faith - belief without evidence, and if we dignify holy books as a valid source of belief, then we can’t criticize someone’s specific beliefs simply because we disagree with them. Whether the belief is good or bad does not making it justified, so it’s merely cherry-picking to allow some unjustified beliefs, but not others. Osama bin Laden’s perception of the Koran is no less justified or rational that any other believers.
Yes, but as a whole they were attacking a culture that did not conform to their religious beliefs.
BalletBabe
New member
Hmm, I believe I've encountered this kind of reasoning before, I think it's called 'intelligence'. Good to know there is some still around.
aspinn2008
Member
I'm not saying all suicide bombings = Islamic suicide bombing. I've just referred to it Islam since it is the most prevalent and since the we can find direct justification for it in the Koran. But really any irrational/supernatural beliefs can result in such actions. A strong belief they you would enter heaven and be united with God can result in someone having no problems or fears with carrying out such actions. If you removed this belief then chances are they would not blow themselves. If they still did then obviously we would question the mental disposition... they would clearly have had serious mental issues.
greeneyedevil
New member
Homer> Excuse my ignorance but I'm a little confused by your argument. I think you are basically saying that secular people are incapable of carying out suicide-attacks, because that would require some kind of spiritual motivation like afterlife or some such. Well, I know secular people are capable of attacking other human beings, and I know secular people are capable of suicide so...why are they incompatible? Again please forgive me if I'm missing your point entirely, but havn't many secular people fought to the death for their country? Is all that nationalist rhetoric about 'suicide-missions' in American war films just a figment of my imagination? Do we not sub-consciously admire martyrs in those films and in all those WWII stories told to us by grandad about his mate Jimbo who drove a truck loaded with TNT headlong into a German munitions factory? Please explain if this is not what you are saying.
LisaTtStopBSLt
New member
Right -- look no further than Japanese Suicide bombers or some of the other cult attacks (again a number of which happened in Japan). Note that the Shinto religion doesn't fixate on an afterlife in the same way as others.
Religion is a potential factor here. But some people here tend to conflate it to being the only factor or the predominant one. The research doesn't back that up. In fact, Pape's analysis of Hezbollah suicide bombers in the period 1982-1986 were 71% Christian, 21% Communist/Socialist, 8% Islamist (204-07). Note that middle number %21 (approximately 1/5) were communist/socialist -- as in no defining religious ideology.
Communal altruism is often a major factor and that doesn't require religious grounding or a promise of an afterlife.
- Matt
Religion is a potential factor here. But some people here tend to conflate it to being the only factor or the predominant one. The research doesn't back that up. In fact, Pape's analysis of Hezbollah suicide bombers in the period 1982-1986 were 71% Christian, 21% Communist/Socialist, 8% Islamist (204-07). Note that middle number %21 (approximately 1/5) were communist/socialist -- as in no defining religious ideology.
Communal altruism is often a major factor and that doesn't require religious grounding or a promise of an afterlife.
- Matt
CarrotMonster
New member
It seems Slip you regard anything bad said about religion to be automatically deemed uneducated, close-minded, rude and intolerant. This illustrates by point precisely. It's perfectly OK to hold any absurd beliefs without evidence or reasons but when someone questions them about this, and/or points out why believing in such as way is inadequate this person is suddenly uneducated, close-minded, rude...
If someone claimed the holocaust didn’t happen or that they can make their bones as strong as diamond or made any other groundless claim you would have no problem calling a spade a spade, would you.
Slip - what is your religious affiliation, if any?
If someone claimed the holocaust didn’t happen or that they can make their bones as strong as diamond or made any other groundless claim you would have no problem calling a spade a spade, would you.
Slip - what is your religious affiliation, if any?