Gun Control

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Andreas

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Might as well make this topic so we can argue here and keep the discussion of the VT massacre "clean" of politics and arguments...

So I will continue the argument that started in that discussion, please keep all responses and discussions of gun control laws, policies, etc... to this thread.



The 2nd Amendment historically was designed as a means of protecting the population from the government, not just the British government but all government...

Surely you can see the potential for abuse if all guns wer ein the hands of the government...



Obvious flaw in your logic- "Very Few common people has the guts or knowledge to get one in criminal places or from smugglers"...a luantic determined to shoot up a school will have the guts to find a gun illegally...not to mention it is very easy to do so in the U.S...

In addition the number of legal guns have been increasing year by year while crimes involving guns have been decreasing, so the sheer number of guns has little effect on these types of things...



Statistically the number of mass shootings like those involved in your statistics make a very small amount of overall gun crimes...

The cities in the U.S with the most gun crime also happen to be the cities with the most gun control...

As to the UK, studies show that the use of handguns has increased by 40% since they were banned in the UK, sure is an effective ban...



It is possible, however the serial numbers were filed off which suggests they are illegal...


If you do the research, guns are used by citizens nearly 2 million times a year to prevent a crime while only something like 36,000 people are killed with guns...

2 million>36,000

Nice Blog entry
 
Great post, Anyone remember NAZI GERMANY?

Here's a woman everyone should listen to.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=n1yfRbU6HmU
 
Of course there are less gun related deaths in Britain. That stat is useless. Show me what all violent crime rates did statistically after Britain passed sweeping bans/extremely strict control on guns. As for mass shootings in Britain, how soon we forget.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/13/newsid_2543000/2543277.stm

In the US, over 95% of the guns used in crimes were stolen or otherwise purchased illegally. Convicted felons, drug addicts, alcoholics, the mentally ill, people with a dishonorable discharge from the military, and illegal aliens are unable to legally own guns. You have to be 18 to purchase a rifle or shotgun, 21 to purchase a handgun.

If anyone wants to debate gun control, I'll be happy to indulge. Let's not make this some mud-slinging, emotional hate fest though. I completely understand why people don't like guns. And for people who don't like them, I understand why they want them banned, heavily controlled, etc. Show me statistics that show how gun control works. Don't just give emotional arguments. Those don't really matter in my opinion.
 
The reason the most gun crime tends to happen in non gun allowing states is because all the states around allow people to get guns!

Its a matter of, the people who want guns in Britain get guns anyway, however we have specialist units to deal with them once they get them.

In the US, if they actually clamped down on gun supply, use, liscencing etc then it can ONLY be a good thing!!
 
That event is a decade old, In the U.S. people seem to go into schools and shoot everyone on a yearly basis.

Also your just spitting out randam statistics with no data at all to support your arguments. Why don't you go and find some actual statistics then come back so i can argue you with you properly?

Aimed at Mr wesson btw.
 
Thank you, you just made a very good point for having the right to own a firearm to protect you and your families lives.


So if one of these people who got a gun illegally attacks you or your family in your house on the street, Wherever, how do you protect yourself until the "Special Unit" gets there?



You just condtradicted yourself, Your country has all of these restrictions and you said that anyone could get a gun anytime they wanted one, so only the law abiding citizens are restricted by the laws and the criminals have guns.
 
Lets see less gun related deaths in UK Vs US. Does anyone know the UK's population Vs the US? Could a larger population have at least a little to do with this statistc? Just askin so don't bludgeon me to death over it.
 
Looking at the original thread that started this one I just want to say again that YES, you can have guns but only at licenced and controlled places like shooting clubs, sports like skeet shooting or for hunting. But after the guns have been used they should be left at those places and laws should be in place that you can't buy weapons for your home and that guns should only be available to law enforcement.

This should prevent persons from simply walking into a store to buy a gun and from legal guns being used to shoot up innocents as in the uni incident. Make less guns available to the everyday puplic and yes, the criminals will still be able to get them illegally but those guns should be easier to track down. Flood the whole of the country with them, allow everyone to get a licence and sorry but no use blaming anyone anymore for incidents such as in that uni. The US basically, in simplest terms, gives poeple in the country, the chance to run amok.....
 
Brabus,
You openly admit that criminals will have guns anyway, OK, so how are you going to protect yourself and your family when one of these criminals breaks into your home and attacks you, while you wait the 20 mins - 2 hrs before the authorities get there?
 
I'll address a few things here. First of all, the US has 301.6 million people (http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html), and the UK has 60.2 million people (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/CCI/nugget.asp?ID=6). When you have 5 times the population, of course you're going to have more crimes committed. I would argue our crime rates are due to differences other than gun control (societal, economic, judicial system, etc).

My statistics for this quick post will come from More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws by John R. Lott, Jr. It was first published in 1998 and later revised in 2000. The statistics mainly go up to about 1995, but the trends matter more than the years.

The study mainly deals with concealed-carry permit legislation though it does address gun ownership as a whole as well. Non-discretionary means the state/county must give you a concealed carry permit (CCP from here on) if you meet the criteria. Discretionary CCPs refer to states that issue if they believe you need one. There are several states left that deny CCPs under any circumstances.

Discretionary states include CA, IA, NY, MA, RI, NJ, DE, MD, and DC. No issue states include NE, KS, WI, and IL. All the rest are non-discretionary except VT and AK which do not require CCPs in order to carry a concealed handgun.

There are an estimated 75-86 million gun owners in the US, and they own 200-240 million guns (1).

58% of murders are committed by family members or people who "knew" victim, only 13% by complete strangers (US DoJ FBI staff Uniform Crime Statistics, 1992).

There are an estimated 760,000 defensive handgun uses per year, 3.6 million defensive uses of any type gun per year (11).

From Oct.1, 1987 to December 1996, Florida issued over 380,000 concealed carry licenses, and "only 72 had been revoked because of crimes committed by license holders (most of which did not involve the permitted gun)" (11).

Change in time trends for crime rates before and after the adoption of nondiscretionary laws -- change in the crime rate from the difference in the annual change in crime rates in the year before and after the change in the law (annual rate after the law - annual rate before the law) 1977-1996 (171)

Violent crime -2.3%, murder -1.5%, rape -3.2%, aggravated assault -3.0%, robbery -2.9%, property crime -1.6%, auto theft -2.1%, burglary -2.5%,         larceny -.9%



% change in the crime rate from a 1% increase in the state's gun-ownership rate (114)

violent crime    -4.1
murder    -3.3
rape        0        
agg assault    -4.3
robbery    -4.3
property crime    -1.5
burglary    -1.6
larceny    -1.3
auto theft    -3.2

More to come, I'll be on later this evening...
 
This debate will go on as it has for ever. with any luck you guys in Europe will keep your laws out of the US. If not Oh well my guns were all bought long before any of these laws came into being and will remain mine until the day I die, then they will be my Daughters guns.
 
TKDjoe, let me ask you a question: How do you think the people in the european countries deal with criminals ? Also, having a gun doesn't automatically mean you can use it. Or do you teach your six year old kid not only where your gun is but how to shoot with it ?

While you are paranoid about having a burglar invade your home I sit here at home in front of my computer not even thinking about this. If a burglar wants to get into your home he will, if he wants to use a weapon he will.Crime rate is pretty low here in europe and alot of it is down to people not having access to weapons openly.
 
Too little too late in my opinion. Very sad but i'm sure a large portion of the shootings in America would be reduced if guns weren't so easily available.
 
Not relevant.
Why don't you answer the question you were asked?



Why are bringing children into this? As the owner it is your responsibility to train with the weapon and your responsibility to choose to engage or not engage an intruder. Who's going to send a child to take on potentially dangerous intruders? Yet another daft attempt to avoid the question that was put to you. It's 3 am, you hear your door being smashed open and there is an armed man in your house. Police won't be here for at least a few minutes at best. What do you do now?

Come tell me about it when you have actually faced this kind of terror.



Take a look at the crime stats for any major U.S. city. Here's what happened within five miles of my house on April 5, 2007 and I live in a very nice area.

burglary 9600 block of 04/05/07
burglary 8800 block of 04/05/07
burglary 8600 block of 04/05/07
assault 8400 block of 04/05/07
stolen vehicle 8300 block of N. 04/05/07
burglary from vehicle 7700 block of 04/05/07
burglary from vehicle 7200 block of 04/05/07
assault 7100 block of 04/05/07
burglary from vehicle 7100 block of 04/05/07
burglary 6900 block of W. 04/05/07



So your ok with being robbed and murdered?



No, it's economic and social factors. Weapons and locked doors are the fail-safe when the former falls short.
 
Does any US citizen seriously buy the argument that your Government thinks twice about its actions because of the fact that the population is armed????Time for a wake up call methinks... There may be many reasonable arguments for gun ownership but that certainly isn't one of them.

Personally I think comparing one culture to another on such issues tends to get us nowhere, but I'd like to repost some stuff from MAP a while back to make people realise the reality of gun crime in the UK rather than the tabloid hysteria. These stats were the lates available at the time, I don't have opportunity right now to go after the latest ones:



In other words gun control in the UK has reduced criminals to using air guns and replicas more frequently. Yes "Gun Crime" is up, but most of it is non-fatal beacuse of the non-lethal nature of the weapons involved.

So before anyone wades in with the "Gun Control doesn't work in the UK!" argument based on what the media has a bee in its bonnet about at the moment, please consider the reality.

Whether that would hold true for the US is obviously a completely different matter.

Mitch
 
Brabus,
You never answered the question.

I'll ask you another question, why is it wrong for a law abiding citizen to be able to protect himself and his family with a firearm? I'm not a criminal, never have been and never will be, if , as you stated, theyre going to get guns anyway regardless of the laws then why shouldn't I be able to own a legally purchased firearm to protect myself from them?
 
Because just like you just said: Its not relevant to me. I'm not paranoid about being robbed. Why ? Simple reason: I live in a pretty safe area here in Berlin. Why is it safe ? Because I don't have to worry about someone rushing into my place with a gun because guns aren't so widely available in this country.

Paranoia is what underlines alot in the US, it seems to me. Paranoia about terrorist attacks, paranoia about robbery, paranoia about someone else also having a gun he can point at you. Well, if he wouldn't have the chance to have that gun in the first place, you wouldn't have to worry, would you ? As for the rest of your points, as I said above, to me they are irrelevant.
 
Because I don't get why you would have to protect yourself from criminals in the first place. Its not YOUR responsibility but that of the law enforcement wherever you live. And the moment you give that criminal the chance to own a gun, or actually anyone for that matter, you give the chance that he/she loses the sense of morality. A gun means power. Like in that uni incident I bet there is someone that felt unjustifiably prejudiced against or something else and what did he do ? He used that gun to let out his anger at it. BUT if he maybe wouldn't have the chance to get that gun it would have ended differently.

To be honest, I won't argue long about this. I don't get the point of someone having a rifle, a shotgun or anything like it at home. But it seems it will always be something anyone in the US insists on. For "protection". Like I said before, paranoia is a big factor in the US and luckily we in europe haven't got that same paranoia yet. Otherwise at one point we'll all take justice into our own hands.
 
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