Gun Control

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LietKynes

New member
There's no flaw in my logic simply because it's no logic: it's a fact of how things work here in Italy. And even if the lunatic has the guts, probably the obstacles in getting such gun would let him "calm down"... if every guy in a traffic jam would have a gun in the car... how many people would be dead, 'cause of rage, quarrels, etc. The fact is that often, people lose control, and having a gun easily accessible could lead him to do something he wouldn't have done if only he'd have some time to lose.
If I was a criminal, I'd buy weapon from smugglers, and for sure no gun control would be effective. This is matter for the police to intercept arms smugglers, to investigate etc.
BUT as in the case of Virginia, if I was a "normal" lunatic guy, no criminal, only weirdo, and I wanted to buy a gun here in my town, I would have no idea on where to buy it. Let's take Milan, Rome and such big cities. Put the hypotesis that I'm a normal citizen that wants to kill 30 people in a university. Do you really think 'll take my car, drive for 5 hours, and go in the suburbs of that big cities to find a gun (without knowing where to look for, and risking my life to find one), then come back, another 5 hours, etc. and then go to University and kill 30 people?
Very improbable.
If I go to a gun shop and I say: please gimme that gun, the owner would laugh at me and probably call police, too. Here in Italy you must pass a serie of tests to own a gun, and you can only keep it in your house or bring it to the shooting range. Police KNOWS you have a gun.
So there's no way a common citizen could enter a shoop and buy a gun, if he wakes up in the mood of killing people.
The difference? In USA you can wake up, be pissed off for something, enter a weapon store, lie to the owner, buy a gun, go to the mall, buy ammo, go to a school and starting to kill people. HERE lies the problem, IMHO.

Then I can only quote Johnno: if you're happy with these laws, it's your only business. But be prepared to pay the price, in terms of lives lost, in a way in no other civilized country happens.
 
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PatA

Member
Why the hell would anyone walk into your house and just shoot at you. You have to have done something to annoy them usually. To be honest I don't think there is a particularly high level of 'random' shootings in the UK.

What you do to protect yourself. What do you think you run like heck if you can, out the back door, hoy the children over the fence. Flick your houses breaker to cut all the lights etc. If you pull a gun, you are just asking for the confrontation to escalate.



No mate, you just proved yourself to be an absoloute TYPICAL american. Not anyone can just get a gun, doing so illegally is much much more complicated than you would think. If someone really really wants to get a gun they can, however it is certainly not an easy thing. HM Customs and Revenue can raid and armed raid anything and everything they want anywhere at any time in Britain or in British waters. This coupled with our coastal patrols and Airport security.

You don't seem to realise (I presume because you are simply too ignorant) the effect of having an utter and EFFECTIVE crackdown. By nigh on completely destroying the supply of handguns here and making it hugely risky to try and get one, Britain is MUCH safer gun wise. I never fear the threat of a gun anywhere I go regularly. The places in Britain where gun crime is high, even then you needn't feel hugely threatened.
 
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gmpros

New member
Someone didn't understand the post I see. I argued that higher crime rates of the US compared to the UK aren't due to us having more guns in the US. Then the statistics I gave prove that more guns in the US has a direct cause of less crime for us. And yet, after that, with all this rhetoric, still nobody has even attempted to contradict them or offer any statistics showing otherwise in any way.
 
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meamyselfandI1

Member
Getting hold of an illegal gun in Britain isn't an easy thing for the vast majority of people.

There does appear to be something of a rise in fatal shootings lately, but they are still very rare and still newsworthy events. (Whereas I'd guess that they rarely even make the news headlines in many parts of the USA.) Over here they tend to be very much localised problems arising from drug-related 'turf wars'. The vast majority of the population has no contact whatsoever with gun crime.

The stricter controls on gun ownership were brought in a few years ago as a result of a massacre carried out using legally-owned guns. Thankfully there hasn't been another one since.
 
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theegreat55

New member
There could be many explanations for variations in crime figures.

I'm sure that the UK has much higher crime stats than a lot of other countries which have equally effective gun control. Obviously many other factors are at work here.
 
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KnowledgeisPowerttttt

New member
You started by saying that there are lots of factors that influence crime rates, and then went on to say that lower crime rates are due to guns. As you said in the begining of your post, there could be many reasons that account for this.
 
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Esai

New member
They call firearms the great equalizer for a reason, anyone with one becomes a threat. It doesn't matter if your attackers are armed as long as you are, the deterrent is there. If you try to advance on a position where a gunman has set himself up you will die. Even with a massive group of people and a firearm with a low rate of fire; he may not be able to shoot all of you but no one is going to be very eager to find out who the unlucky ones will be.

That's great that you live in a safe area but gun control is not what makes it safe. The sense of community and general attitude and economic options are what make it safe. The question that you keep avoiding is what would you do if it wasn't so safe? It's not paranoia in many areas of the states, it's reality and if you ever have to face a firearm from the wrong end you learn the only viable defense is the ability to return fire.

I bet if you talked to your local LEOs you'd find that your neighborhood isn't quite as safe as you thought. I just recently became aware of an incident a few years ago that occurred maybe a mile and a half from my house. A local woman had fallen on hard times and was living out of her car with her five year old daughter. Being as warm as it is here she had the car windows rolled down while they slept. One of the local street people decided that she owed them some money and tried to collect. He slit her throat ear to ear in front of her daughter. I've spoken with the detective and he walked us through the crime scene photos, explaining what they could tell from the blood spatter. She staggered down the street spraying gouts of blood and finally bled out and died on the nearest doorstep. This is just one example, I had no idea this had happened and it was only a little over a mile away from me.

So let's look at the evidence; I've been giving stats and real world experiences and you keep dodging questions and accusing others of being paranoid because they question your myopic and naive solution to a very complex problem.
 
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ozpy3

New member
I don't see anyone not supporting tougher sentencing for those who commit crimes with firearms or even in possession of firearms. Even the NRA has been preaching that for years.

And I have yet to see a single statistic from anyone showing how gun control works. Shall I go pull up Britain's before and after statistics to show what your home invasion rate did after your ban? Or shall I pull up Switzerland's crime rates to show that it's not a gun problem? There are many, many factors that can lead to increased or decreased crime rates. Higher arrest/conviction rates, stricter sentencing, lower poverty rates, etc etc. More guns in law-abiding citizens' hands does lower crime rates. I have never said nor implied it's the only thing that does. I pulled up Dunblane because an earlier post alluded to the UK not having any mass shootings.
 
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meereemak

New member
I suppose I will throw in my hat. Like what I say, don't like it, take it or leave it, it doesn't really matter to me.

A gun, any gun, left loaded and ready to go on a table top will not pick itself up and shoot some one. If left alone it will sit there for all eternity (acts of nature aside). It takes a human being to pick that gun up for it discharge a round and shoot someone.

The issue is not guns, it's the process of people obtaining those guns.

Period. Full Stop. End of Story.

I believe there can be a common sense, nation-wide, standardized, method for people to obtain firearms that will reduce the number of nut jobs doing what happened up in VA.

This is just my NSHO.
 
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mguardian_north

Member
You should have done your research.

Heres the chronology

1. Dunblane happened.
2. Handguns banned as direct result of Dunblane.

To my recollection there hasn't been one since.
 
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AyeshaM

New member
bcullen, actually, you are wrong there, I'm not naive at all. I don't ever have to face a gun here in this country so to be honest, I don't have to think about it. And sorry, stats don't prove anything. But YES I'm right in accusing you in being paranoid, you are giving me evidence of it with every new post. Are you the one listing up all the possible reasons you need firearms or me ? Reading your posts I wonder if you are at this very moment sitting in your place, windows all closed and with two shutguns on your lap afraid a burglar is going to come into your place. Thats called paranoia !

Don't see how my options are naive, by the way. They seem to work in the UK and every other european country as listed by posts from other members. In fact, I don't know whats naive about having licenced guns at shooting clubs or hunting unions but not having any at home. I might not know your country bcullen but I can smell paranoia a mile away.

Sorry so many people in your country are afraid of a threat they created themselves. By allowing everyone the ability to own guns. I would be afraid of a person walking into my place as well in the US knowing your own laws gave that criminal the chance to own that gun. Hell, for all I know he might just be your next-door neighbour. Really pissed off at you for some reason.
 
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vallekosovare

New member
Insurance and annual renewal of the registration of the weapons in addition to licensing are things that aren't currently in place that I think should be.
 
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ujaasshah

Member
^^ What holyhead said.

On a side note what do you think it will take before americans do consider gun control , i mean if the needless death of 32 young people doesn't suggest you may have problem then i don't know what will.
 
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UCFbrother

New member
I am aware of the order of things. The point was the Britain still has their problems. This was direct evidence showing mass murders have occurred in Britain in the last 20 years or so, which was contrary to what was implied earlier.

As for the 32 murdered, it's a tragedy, but it's really a drop in the pan in the scheme of things. The US murder rate has been dropping steadily since about 1991, but we still had 16,692 murders in 2005. http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

On a side note, I stumbled upon an article I found interesting and relevant.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2656875.stm

Edit: As I've said earlier, if VA's congress hadn't squashed a bill in 1/06 that would have lifted the ban on CCP holding students/teachers carrying CCWs on campus, things might have turned out differently. We don't know. It would be interesting to see if there were any CCP holders in close proximity of either shooting, but I doubt the media would cover that even if there were.
 
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