Gun Control

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GetDressedG

Member
Your edited addition.

What should they be held accountable for? Did they go out and kill people? No. They merely followed the law in terms of due process. Can you imagine the ramifications of being able to sue the police because they didn't prevent a crime? What liberties will you give up in order to have the police prevent all crimes? I thought you were in favor of responsibility and personal liberty? Or is it just anti-government? From your postings, you place them in the situation of being wrong either way they go.
 
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MrH

Member
The reality is that you are different because you have different roles at the time. You may very well be no more likely to go crazy and start shooting up in either case, but the expectations of the public will be very different. And I have no desire to live in a third world country where everyone carries automatic weapons down the street.

When we allow our arguments to slip off the slope of respectability and common sense, all of our other arguments become suspect.
 
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CraigG

Member
As I've already said, there has been only one murder committed with a legally owned machine gun since records started being kept, and it was committed by a police officer. My carrying a legally owned machine gun down the street is no threat to anyone around me. To believe otherwise is ignorance (note: I'm not making a blanket statement calling people who don't like machine guns - I'm merely saying the fear they'll be murdered in this situation is naive). There were basically no gun control laws in this country at all prior to the Gun Control Act of 1968 which was passed as a knee-jerk reaction to MLK and Robert Kennedy's assassinations. Strict regulations on machine guns didn't take place until 1986. Would you say gun crime now is better or worse than it was in 1968? My point is as it has always been. The guns aren't the problem. It doesn't matter what type of gun that is. Any gun in the hands of a law-abiding citizen is a good thing.
 
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kacie18

Member
All right I'm back and to answer your question, what I was trying to point out was that if your going to hand public safety over to the police, they must be held accountable. (read for content) However, if the people are to be responsible for themselves as I have stated that they are and should be, than you must allow them the tools with which to protect themselves. There are no martial arts moves that will prepare you to face a man intent on killing you with a gun. BAM your dead and you never got within 10 feet of the bad guy.

There is no such thing as a magic law that would make all guns disappear. I'm sorry but if there is a market for guns there will always be guns. The same is true for drugs, prostitution, gambling, alcohol, and anything elso you want to take away form people. If people want it than somebody somewhere will sell it to them.

I would bet you a years salary that I could go to any nation on earth and buy a gun for criminal purposes. You will never make guns go away or any thing else. You will only succeed in disarming honest citizens and placing them at the mercy of criminals.

If you want to solve the violence issue than look deeper into the problem than the weapons that are used. Look at who is perpetrating the violence and why they are doing it. Small minded people always thing that solutions to social issues are cut and dry, but they always fail. Despite all the laws that have ever been enacted crime has never gone away. Never in human history has crime been absent from a culture.

So now it answer time. How will taking guns away from citizens prevent crime? How will you prevent a black market from springing up in the wake of the new legislation? Who will enforce these laws and how much will it cost the tax payers? How will we round up all the guns in the country without destroying what left of the constitution. Finally, what will you do about those who refuse to give up their guns?

Answer these questions if you can and I'll consider continuing this conversation.
 
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amey~leigh

Member
I don't think you have read the thread if you are asking me. If you are a mentally stable, law abiding citizen, with no criminal history, then you should be able to own a gun in the US. I have one. So does my wife.
 
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jenseits

New member
And how someone seeing you walk down the street know with a loaded machine gun know that it is legal? I think a fairly safe assumption, though it could be wrong, would be that if you were walking down the street with a loaded machine gun and you weren't in uniform, it would not be legal.
 
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CHERYLANNG

Member
And were back to the stricter controls issue. Fact is the US is highly unlikely to ever ban firearms, but I dont see why it has to be so easy to buy one. Tighten up the controls, harsen the punishments and make wearing body armour mandatory, that is all us Europeans ask.
 
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tardis_mom

Member
Yes, they must be held accountable. The question is for what. I think they should be held accountable to do the best they can and to follow the law. You seem to want to hold them accountable for not stopping all crime when and yet argue about losing liberties. You can't have it both ways.



You might try reading the thread. I have been the primary person on this thread saying there is no proof that gun control works. I am the one that pointed out that the use of guns has increased in the UK since the ban.



Dude, get off your high horse. I really don't care about attitudes. You can be wrong all you want. Because I point out the flaw in your posts, you seem to get the idea that I am pro gun control.
 
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EdG

Member
Please remember that around half of all firearms offences in the UK are carried out using air weapons. That doesn't take account of replicas either. I doubt those stats would have been true of the late 80's.
 
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scottym

New member
I think we have strict enough laws. We need to tighten enforcement. Get rid of plea bargains on gun offenses.

What do you mean by mandatory body armor? For who? Andy why do Europeans even care what we do? It isn't like we care what you do.
 
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DirkDiggler

Member
We already went through that. According to the number posted in this thread, the percentage of actual guns used dropped by 5% (from 24% to 19%) while the number of reported guns trippled.
 
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VOGUEobsession

Member
Did you get lost from the other thread?

The point is that we have no business demanding that you do things that seem right to us in your internal affairs. Likewise, our internal affairs are our business. That doesn't mean we can't discuss. It doesn't mean we can't learn from each other. The issue is thinking that the other must be like us.

Have you noticed that while TKDMitch and Holy and even Sgt have views that are closer to yours, they aren't treated as being iofftopicture and made fun of for their views? Perhaps you could learn something from their presentation. Just a thought.
 
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STOPCHILDABUSE

New member
It was a joke, I thought that much was obvious.

I guess that where we are different, 33 people get killed, it bothers us, irrespective of nationality, if that concern only works one way, so be it.
 
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nothing_without_you4

New member
You're right. My mistake. In the recent case the guy bought extra clips. Which is what allowed him to kill so many people so quickly.

Definately a hole in the system that needs to be closed.

Doesn't Walmart exist to sell stuff at "dicount" prices? Isn't that why Walmart is so popular? Doesn't Walmart also sell guns? Why do department stores sell guns anyway? Is that appropriate? Shouldn't the sale of guns be restricted to specialists? "Hey Mr. Salesman I'll have a Plasma screen TV a fridge freezer and a fully automatic assault rifle please ".

But what good does that do if kids are using their parents guns that their parents legally bought?

And that stops kids killing their class mates with daddies gun how exactly?

The point I'm making is that Americans see a gun as being no more dangerous than a block of cheese. And treat it as such. So there is clearly a safety culture issue there that needs to be changed to keep weapons out of the reach of children.

Now if your gun is locked away could you get to it in time to protect your home? I doubt it. So other than sport, why have one?

Let me get this straight. You actually think you're little pea shooter is going to be a major threat to an American government which apparently coofftopicnds the most well equipped and armed military in the world?

When the US lead the invasion of Afghanistan they carpet bombed the place further back to the stone age than it already was. When the US lead the invasion of Iraq with operation Shock and Awe. They targeted single buildings and cars with precision guided missiles to take out individual targets.

How exactly does owning a hand gun or a hunting rifle protect you from that sort of weaponry. Are you so naive that you think an American fascist (should one ever be elected) government wouldn't use those weapons on it's own people?

I think the fire power currently at the disposal of the US government puts the 2nd amendment firmly in it's place if it's true purpose is to allow people to fight back against an unjust and tyrannical government.

Speaking of which. Why didn't anybody rise up against George W. Bush after he essentially stole his first term in office?

Um ... no we haven't. CCTV is used in public places not peoples homes.

By law every Iraqi has the right to own a gun. And almost every Iraqi has one. So how come a dictator managed to take control and keep control? How come the people of Iraq need foreign invaders to free them from tyranny?

Yes and back in history the people were better matched against their governments fire power than people are today.

No. Because you're not.

Don't these two statements contradict one another. Denying responsibility doesn't remove the blame.
 
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amourx3

Member
Sorry, I didn't get the joke. But that's ok. I don't always get what you brits call humor.

Emotional browbeating is beneath you. You are better than that. The death of a single person, even the injury of a single person due to the evil nature of a person is terrible. I think we can all agree with that. But the fact that a person or even millions of people around the world are evil doesn't mean that we should settle for feel good pretend solutions that don't really solve the problem and just take away the rights of others.
 
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HeathereFeather

New member
You do realize that most illegal guns are not gotten from their parents, don't you? Only about a third are acquired from a family member. Many of those stolen at the same time that they steal other possessions. Others are freely given by family members that are also involved in crime.


If my home security alarm goes off, I can have the gun which is locked up rather securely, out and loaded in 30 seconds. I know because we have drilled it, just like we have drilled fire safety.


I doubt anyone here is really worried about it.


You mean by winning the election? There was no stealing. He won every recount. It followed our laws.


How does your right to privacy hold up? Can anyone review it without having to get a warrant? But I don't worry about CCTV in a public place that is looking for crimes.
 
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zoro

Member
Sorry, difference in terms, a discount store here is either a factory outlet or second-hand store.

Retailers like Walmart do carry some firearms, most often hunting rifles to find the more exotic weapons you normally have to go to a gun shop.

However, no one sells fully automatic assault rifles. You can buy an AR-15 which looks and acts much like the M-16 but it is only a semi-automatic weapon. It's the same with all the weapons, it might look like an AK-47 but it's really a hunting rifle with a really big clip.



Thus far we only need to establish you are mentally competent and not a criminal. If they are irresponsible, bad parents or both society gets stuck with the bill whether the implement of destruction is a car or a firearm or just plain stupidity.



It doesn't; educating children on firearm safety and being involved in your child's life is what stops it.



Some do but that's usually not the legal owners as they educate themselves about their purchase and if you go to any firing range you'll see that these people show a great deal of respect for what a firearm can do.



The firearm is only part of the equation, making sure your home is properly secured is the other part. It doesn't matter if you have an arsenal of military grade weapons if someone can get into your home without waking you.

To get into my house you will literally have to break in which gives me time to get in position. By the time you make entry the police will be on their way (I'm real close to the station too, like easy jogging distance) and to get to my family and I, you will have to come down a narrow hallway where I'm waiting and ready. Coming down that hallway would be the last mistake of their criminal career.
 
EZDrummer

EZDrummer

New member
I didn't say it was legal. I'm saying it should be legal. Open carry of any gun shouldn't be an issue. Neither should concealed carry. I am saying if it were common place, we wouldn't have the sheeple running scared to death. Israel has higher gun ownership and lower crime than the US. People there commonly have assault rifles, and it isn't a big deal. My point hasn't changed. The problem isn't the guns. It's our culture.
 
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