If Jesus the man never existed, why did Luke make up lies to crowbar a...

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SundayLunch

New member
...MAN into fulfilling Jewish prophecies? Casear Augustus is known to have conducted 3 censuses of Roman citizens in 28bce, 8bce and 14ce. None of these cenuses comply with Jesus supposed birth date of 4bce to 4ce.
Res Gestae 8

All indications, even in the writings of Matthew & Luke, point to the fact that Jesus was from Nazareth.

If Jesus had been a complete myth as some atheists believe, why didn’t they just say He was born in Bethlehem, fulfilling a Messianic prophecy (Micah 5:1) , instead of making up a complicated story of His Mother & stepfather’s requirement to travel to a town of Joseph’s ancestor for a census (which never took place). The idea of a census requiring individuals to move to the native town of long dead ancestors is hard to credit.

“The fabrication itself suggests something. If they were simply going to make up the whole thing, and there had never be any such person. Then why not have Him born in Bethlehem and leave out Nazareth.”
Christopher Hitchens
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ac5_1251368661&c=1
@ Ben, well remembered its was over 2 months ago. If you care to watch the 7min video linked, maybe Überanti-theist Christopher Hitchens might convience you that a “charasmatic deluded individual” did exist, otherwise why the blatant lies?
 
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lainiebsky

Member
The gospels are trying to suggest that Jesus was born in Bethlehem but from Nazareth thus supposedly fulfilling two prophecies. (Matthew 2:23 And arriving, he lived in a city which is called Nazareth, in order to fulfill what was spoken through the prophets: “For he shall be called a Nazarene.”) The simple fact that the authors of Matthew and Luke do it by two different and incompatible means shows that the stories were invented. The fact that the two authors concocted two different genealogies is further evidence.

The Straight Dope has an interesting article on just why the idea that one would be required to travel to the hometown of an ancestor from several generations back for a census is not believable (how would you decide which of the dozens of ancestors was the relevant one?) and how the dates don't match up in any way:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2001/what-did-the-census-at-the-time-of-the-birth-of-christ-accomplish
 
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BentheHat

New member
Wait a minute! I've seen this question before and I'll give the same answer as I did then. Your saying because the story is not simpler then it must be true, sorry I don't think that's the way it works
 
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CJunk

New member
He may not of made up any lies. He just believed faulty information, like people do every day.

If jesus is Myth, then it makes sense why people altered the myth as time went on to fit their own agendas which is clearly evident in the bible. Not lies, just extra bits of the story to re craft the myth. And this is something christians do daily with the Jesus character. Is saying Superman is from the planet Krypton a lie? Of course not.its not deliberate deception. Its just part of the story

Even Christians today say there are prophecies concerning Jesus that the 4 gospel writers never refer to. Showing that christians accept growing 'revelation' if you will. And are quite willing to attribute new prophecies to the Jesus character. Latr gospel writers simply done the same thing accept it was to build a better story. Luke, just thought it was true as many other christians thought it to be true. It was taught as true (like the boy that cried wolf story), but ultimately wasnt meant to be taken as true. Milk of the word vs meat of the word no doubt. Many 'mystery' cults done the same and still do to this day. Many christian sects do the same, when they say its all about grace and love, and then when you are in the door, introduce the laws and threats of eternal torment, angelic heirachy, etc etc
 
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CJunk

New member
He may not of made up any lies. He just believed faulty information, like people do every day.

If jesus is Myth, then it makes sense why people altered the myth as time went on to fit their own agendas which is clearly evident in the bible. Not lies, just extra bits of the story to re craft the myth. And this is something christians do daily with the Jesus character. Is saying Superman is from the planet Krypton a lie? Of course not.its not deliberate deception. Its just part of the story

Even Christians today say there are prophecies concerning Jesus that the 4 gospel writers never refer to. Showing that christians accept growing 'revelation' if you will. And are quite willing to attribute new prophecies to the Jesus character. Latr gospel writers simply done the same thing accept it was to build a better story. Luke, just thought it was true as many other christians thought it to be true. It was taught as true (like the boy that cried wolf story), but ultimately wasnt meant to be taken as true. Milk of the word vs meat of the word no doubt. Many 'mystery' cults done the same and still do to this day. Many christian sects do the same, when they say its all about grace and love, and then when you are in the door, introduce the laws and threats of eternal torment, angelic heirachy, etc etc
 
C

CJunk

New member
He may not of made up any lies. He just believed faulty information, like people do every day.

If jesus is Myth, then it makes sense why people altered the myth as time went on to fit their own agendas which is clearly evident in the bible. Not lies, just extra bits of the story to re craft the myth. And this is something christians do daily with the Jesus character. Is saying Superman is from the planet Krypton a lie? Of course not.its not deliberate deception. Its just part of the story

Even Christians today say there are prophecies concerning Jesus that the 4 gospel writers never refer to. Showing that christians accept growing 'revelation' if you will. And are quite willing to attribute new prophecies to the Jesus character. Latr gospel writers simply done the same thing accept it was to build a better story. Luke, just thought it was true as many other christians thought it to be true. It was taught as true (like the boy that cried wolf story), but ultimately wasnt meant to be taken as true. Milk of the word vs meat of the word no doubt. Many 'mystery' cults done the same and still do to this day. Many christian sects do the same, when they say its all about grace and love, and then when you are in the door, introduce the laws and threats of eternal torment, angelic heirachy, etc etc
 
H

Hello

Member
I've been thinking this for years. The idea that the gospels are 100% fiction is completely ridiculous. If you were to make up the son of god, you wouldn't make him a capenter who rode on a donkey, was a deciple to another man (John the baptist), remains completely neutral on Roman occupation and eventually dies a slow and horrible death. Not to mention that the novel was not truly invented until the 1600s and fiction either took the form of poetry or a play and the ability to create a story with such detailed events and characters is unlikely to say the least.

I also doubt if they are 100% accurate either, I imagine that there are some liberties, such as the 5000 followers are likely to have been originally a large crowd and tales exagurated its size.

The biggest question of all is why would someone make it up? Most early christians met a horrible death, why would they go through that if they believed in someone who didn't exist
 
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HUSSEIN

New member
If I can quote "hello" above me...........

'The biggest question of all is why would someone make it up? Most early christians met with horrible deaths, why would they go through that if they believed in someone who didn't exist?'

The Greatest Man in History Jesus had no servants, yet
they called Him Master. Had no degree, yet they called
Him Teacher. Had no medicines, yet they called Him
Healer. He had no army, yet kings feared Him. He won
no military battles, yet He conquered the world.
He committed no crime, yet they crucified Him. He was
buried in a tomb, yet He lives today. I feel honored
to serve such a Leader who loves us! If you believe in
God and in Jesus Christ His Son . . If
you ignore it, just remember that Jesus said ... "If
you deny me before man, I will deny you before my
Father in Heaven."
 
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Chmya

New member
The video is armchair pontification accussing Scripture of what he is himself doing.

The hijackers were possibly ignorant of what "nazar" meant and thought that must mean "Nazareth". the city and so scrambled to have him associated with the city of Nazareth after they substituted the word "messiah" for nazar in Isaiah.

Well, and he was allegedly born in Bethlehem. A Christmas carol stating the same:
 
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LHCatholicByChoice

New member
Well fortunately a lot of what scholars once considered incorrect info usually within a few yrs find out the writers of the Bible were even more accurate than imagined. The Gospels only prove that the writers did not get to gather and create a agreed upon story but there view of what happened is much like 3 or 4 witnesses giving there story of what they saw in a accident and they all always noticed or were impressed by some thing the other missed but do come to one conclusion their was a accident and there was damage.
And why would 12 men leave there world there homes there Jobs and families and all be murdered(martyred)but one for a fictitious person and even look forward to dieing for that person believing that by doing so they would live forever with him.And the one who did not die a Martyrs life was punished often but never relented to telling what he witnessed and experienced. All the non believers have never been able to give a sensible answer to this other than try to show there created characters but History definitely proves them wrong their also....
 
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LHCatholicByChoice

New member
Well fortunately a lot of what scholars once considered incorrect info usually within a few yrs find out the writers of the Bible were even more accurate than imagined. The Gospels only prove that the writers did not get to gather and create a agreed upon story but there view of what happened is much like 3 or 4 witnesses giving there story of what they saw in a accident and they all always noticed or were impressed by some thing the other missed but do come to one conclusion their was a accident and there was damage.
And why would 12 men leave there world there homes there Jobs and families and all be murdered(martyred)but one for a fictitious person and even look forward to dieing for that person believing that by doing so they would live forever with him.And the one who did not die a Martyrs life was punished often but never relented to telling what he witnessed and experienced. All the non believers have never been able to give a sensible answer to this other than try to show there created characters but History definitely proves them wrong their also....
 
J

Jimbo

Member
I agree with you that it seems likely that some significant philosophical figure, perhaps by the name of Jesus, did emerge in Nazareth around that time, and that Luke went to great lengths to associate him with the prophecies of Isaiah. To have had such an impact on the people that they would want to put him forward to the various ecumenical councils of the early church as a candidate for, essentially, god-status, suggests that he was a very wise man indeed, perhaps even a rival to Socrates.

However, to an historian, this does not constitute evidence of his existence. The accounts may, for instance, refer to several men, or even to legend which was embellished in the retelling by various contemporary sages.

Also, I feel it is important to state that, if there was a single man to whom all the philosophical work of Jesus can be attributed, then ascribing to him all the miracles, prophecy and god-like attributes that we do not only confuses his message, it absolutely demeans it. Poor Jesus!
 
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