Palestenian-Israeli Conflict

the israeli's are the invaders, occupiers the oppressors.



more zionist lies, the only problem is that only other zionists believe these lies.
 
And Jordan didn't occupy the West Bank from 1948 to 1967?
Egypt didn't occupy Gaza from 1948 to 1967?
 
Off the top of my head, both Egypt and Syria were supplied by the Soviets, Jordan by the US.
Or is it your contention that the US supplied Israel, and the Arabs built their own?
 
Wow, right out of the liberal apologist "playbook". I voiced a politically incorrect opinion, to which you promptly labeled me "militant" and indirectly accused me of ignornance by questioning "how many muslims I actually know." I responded with a small sample of source material to show my view is not based on ignornance, but rather well rationed thought in light of the facts. These websites are by no means the only ones I've looked at; who can form an intelligent opinion with only a one-sided view? However, they are ones that support the conclusions I've drawn based on the research I've done. But rather than deal with the facts, when faced with an informed opinion that differs from your Politically Correct notions, you ran the next play in the 'playbook' by attempting to marginalize my opinion as 'racist' or 'bigoted' going so far as to accuse me of try to change the topic of the thread. It's much easier to try and discredit my character than deal with the facts I've presented. It's also worth noting that you would include Amazon.com, GlobalSecurity.org, and Wikipedia.org as "Anti-Muslim" in your attempt to brand me a 'bigot'. Yet nowhere have you attempted to provide one shred of evidence to refute what I've said about the overall goal of the Jihadist movement.

The fact remains that the Jihadists hold that all Muslim lands must be returned to Muslim control. As such, that means a one or two state solution is irrelevant to the Palestinian/Israeli issue. All that matters is that as long as Israel exists, the Jihadists will continue to fight by whatever means are available. Creating an independent Palestine will only serve to give the Palestinian Jihadists a vehicle to obtain comparable weapons with which they will inevitably attempt to invade and destroy Israel. How do I know? Because the Muslim Brotherhood is a primary force behind the Jihadist movement and the Palestinian arm of the Muslim Brotherhood is known to the world as Hamas. They will not stop until Israel is destroyed because of their Jihadist views. This is the goal of the Palestinian gov't, a goal obviously shared by the people given the overwhelming support Hamas got at the polls.

Now, I believe the next move according to your side's playbook is to label me 'alarmist' and 'reactionary' in an attempt to make your position look more moderate and reasonable to those who truely don't know the facts.
 
Try this one if you need further proof:


http://cedarmailer.com/americancongress/pages/archive/messagedetails.asp?ID=439
 
Or this one.

http://cedarmailer.com/americancongress/pages/archive/messagedetails.asp?ID=456

Note that while the links in the last two posts come from the same archive, they are from different writers and different original publications.
 
Why is it merely fascist, racist, anti-mulim propaganda if it disagrees with your view and I am supposed to accept the fascit, racist, anti-Israel stuff you post?
 
Arab countries were supplied weapons by France, Russia/SovietUnion, Germany and the United States depending on political convienance of each of these countries. Don't give me that just Israel was supplied with weapons because its b.s.
 
That can quickly be substantiated with a Google Search. And how exactly is it "fascist" or do you just like to use the word to scare people into not reading the material?
 
For an enlightening exercise, Here's a link to the Wikipedia entry for fascist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist

"...Fascism is also typified by totalitarian attempts to impose state control over all aspects of life: political, social, cultural, and economic. The fascist state regulates and controls (as opposed to nationalizing) the means of production. Fascism exalts the nation, state, or race as superior to the individuals, institutions, or groups composing it. Fascism uses explicit populist rhetoric; calls for a heroic mass effort to restore past greatness; and demands loyalty to a single leader, often to the point of a cult of personality..."

Sounds like life under the Sharia to me.
 
The best idea I have is that the Palestinians stop attacking Israel, recognize Israel's right to exist. Israel stop retaliating and recognize Palestine as a seperate country. Palestine sets up it's own country democratically based on the 1948 borders with Jerusalem being an international city. Palestine's government be partially funded by outside sources for a set number of years to let them catch up and then let both countries stand on their own. How does that sound?



What you used was the old number that was not up to date.



Actually, you said:


I don't think you subtracted out how many are accidentally killed by other Palestinians.



Might I suggest you show me something to nitpick on the other side? It was because I went back to see where that was something to tear apart, out of a desire to be fair, that I found your error on the number of Israelis that were killed.



By the numbers you posted, there is a huge difference. Of course, would you agree that the ifamericaknew website is definitely an anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian website?

How about http://www.ict.org.il/casualties_project/mideast_statistics_frame.htm. It has some interesting numbers if a little old.



Do you really think that most people that are attacking are going out in the middle of the street and shouting, "Hey, look at me! I am going to start shooting people in 1 minute!" No. They hide behind things or get on roofs.



I have no idea. If you look at their report, you see that the number is based on deaths up to November 30, 2004 but only includes investigations completed by May 10, 2004. How many were underway? How many got convictions? I don't know. Is it a problem? It would certainly appear so. I also understand their point of view. They are focusing only on Palestinian deaths because those are the ones that may or may not be criminal. All of the Israeli deaths are criminal.



I don't know if it is justified or not. Do you? What percentage are 17? What are they in jail for? If in jail for being Palestinians, as you would have me believe, then it is most definitely not justified. If they are in jail for their crimes that they actually committed, then it is most definitely justified.

But the same site that gave that number in a report also has this to say:


http://www.dci-pal.org/english/display.cfm?DocId=490&CategoryId=1

I wonder how many of those injuries will appear in the numbers that you gave earlier?



You see a lot of media bias towards both sides. Just as we see you have bias towards the Palestinians. Do I agree with the destruction of the homes of militant terrorists? No. But what do you think they should have done instead?

I acknowledge that Israel has not been terribly concerned with how many people on the other side get hurt if they get the person they are after. I think that is bad. But do you think that maybe Israel might be a little more forgiving if the Palestinians targeted empty buildings rather than unarmed women and children?



Yes, it is a long page. There have been way too many deaths.

If you look at the talk sections of those pages, anyone that has a source where the number can be credited, can add it. Including those that are pro Palestinian. I think the accepted answer to whether they are armed or not is whether they had a weapon on them. Btw, even though rocks kill and injure, I believe it also mentioned that when they were demonstrated to be throwing rocks, it was not counted. Of course, you don't accept the Israeli paper as a source. But if you refuse to accept the Israeli paper, should a Palestinian report be accepted?



I say it is a minority and then you say I am implying it is a majority? If I say minority, I mean minority. It really is that simple. If it were a majority on both sides, the number of casualties would be far greater.



How do you think Israel should have been formed?

I believe that religion and culture is a major reason for the war because it is. Are you familiar with the Hebron Massacre which was well before the creation of Israel? It was part of a series of violence due to Jews going to the Wailing Wall. That summer, 133 Jews were killed by Muslims, basically due to religion.

Historically during religious festivals, the Ottoman Empire had used thousands of troops to enforce peace on those of all three religions, Muslims, Christians, and Jews. When Britain took over, they only had a small number of troops for those festivals. It was not suprising that violence then errupted most often during religious festivals. This was all before Israel was created as a country. If the issue was only the way Israel was created, why did the violence erupt at specific times of the year and in regards to religious issues such as the Wailing Wall prior to Israel being formed?
 
Those sites as sources show your posts are ignorant. They don't only show that you are not being "politically correct." Your replies are not only racist; just foolish and misinformed. End of story.
You are right again though; no one can form an intelligent opinion with a one-sided view. I suggest you look at the other side before your next reply.
 
It is still disputed. Israel said it was a Palestinian mine while Palestine says it was an Israeli shell. Israel and Palestine are not exactly unbiased. I do remember someone from the Palestinian government inviting an international team to investigate the incident.
 
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