Police Burtality or Preformance of Duty???

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Wifeyyyy

New member
I agree alansmurf...

This has happened to me where a small video was entered into evidence that the use of force used on an arrestee was unnecessary. A well known ambulance chaser in my city jumped all over it, until they watched what really happened from my video recorded inside my cruiser. They changed their minds quickly and tried to plea to a lesser charge. Thank GOD for video.

Kew-Do
 
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birdog

Member
If a short clip like this were the evidence against one of your clients, wouldn't you be asking where the rest of the video was?
 
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Asimo911

New member
Additionally...

We all want to point the finger at... this and that... and or say what we would do if we were in someones shoes or profession, however, Lets just say that this guy, who obviously is resisting arrest, {and we really do not know what happened prior to or the facts that lead up to this video}, was arrested for victimizing you, your family, or someone close to you. Is the use of force justified to affect a cuff and an arrest? I agree, maybe these officers could have used another alternative. I am a police officer and still it is easy for me to say this however, may react in a different way if I was in that scenario. I have hit people with O.C. (pepper spray), I have witness Tazer application, and still have watched people still coming after you! At the end of the day, that officer, male or female, wants to go home to their family as safe as possible. We all want to point the finger when we feel that there is brutality, but honestly..............who are you going to call and how much force should be used if someone is coming after you or one of your family memebers and it is a life or death issue? Really, you never know what could lead up to life or death, each call has the potential for lethality! ALL CALLS!!!! it only takes one second for this to transpire. I'm sure you have all watched police shoot out videos so I will not bother you with the links.

Respectfully submitted,

Kew-Do
 
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MegumiAkiko

New member
GC I neither condone nor accuse these officers ..I merely point out the sometimes very real risk of pre judging an incident from looking at it one sided viewpoint...

As ever I respect your experience and expertise ....but tell us about your little darlings of clients who will spit, assault, threaten, abuse and even lie about the police officers ........there are two sides to every story..

respectfully

Smurf
 
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Esai

New member
Just for fun!!!!


Message to Gangrelchilde...

I do respect lawyers and the jobs they perform, after all, you suffered through school to earn your JD, the bar exam, etc... and the same applies to you folks, most folks do not like you or trusts you until they need you, then, you are their "White Knight".
I know how that feels through all the jokes etc...

I'll have to tell you about the time I was "BIT" by a delusional intoxicated lawyer. It really is a funny story, well, I quess you would have had to be there to think it was funny.

Kew-Do
 
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Ellaisbackt

New member
Hi All,

"brutality" - NOT sure - I think that brutality kind of depends on the officers mindset - what they intended at the time.

What is a FACT from the clip and is not mitigated by any prior events is that the officers were poorly trained - in the situation shown at the beginning of the clip they should have been able to effect the handcuffing without hitting to the face.

In fact, hitting to the face is probably a seriously sub-optimal tactic unless they could do it hard enough to effect a knockout (an unconscious person is generally easy to cuff). Otherwise hitting to the face can easily result in the person being hit, tensing up and resisting.

I am sure that virtually everyone on this board could role-play that scenario and come up with better alternatives.

The problem is the age old one that in most countries (certainly the UK and the USA) the average policeman gets nowhere near enough training in effective unarmed tactics.

In most cases it's not the officers fault - they just have a very limited set of trained responses.

All the best.

Robert.
 
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ponysteel

Member
As a former Officer we were taught a three-sided five-tiered Use Of Force (UOF) model based in a Graham vs Conner court case. We were also taught the five reasons for the use of deadly force. One of these reasons is if a fleeing suspect has threatened deadly force against the officer or others. If in the attempt to arrest the suspect he makes a threat, but the officers have some control and only need to place the cuffs on then some lesser use of force would be warrented.


I'm not saying this is what happened. I'm just stating some of the things officers receive as training, and some logic applied. Officers receive continous training on the UOF and reasons for Deadly Force.

Just something to think about.
 
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asphyxia

New member
Sure, there are two sides to every story. I tell my clients that. Most of them, after discussions, will acknowledge their fault in the sitch in my experience. Too bad this story's most important side was caught on tape. and spitting and threatening... not good enough to justify the use of excessive force, by the way.



That wasn't resisting arrest to the degree which justified the use of excessive force. The perp was prone, subdued, and failing to comply with orders to relax because he was being choked. I certainly contend that ground and pound is pretty much excessive force.



This is wholly irrelevant and meant to appeal to people's fear fo criminals.




No evidence of that here except for the allegations by two officers caught with their hands in the cookie jar. They have *no* credibility as far as I'm concerned. And the family stuff, once again, is irrelevant.



And this was *not* a police shootout video. The perp was prone, admittedly non-compliant (because he was being choked), and then the fine members of the LAPD decided to go all Tito Ortiz on him. Don't even think of putting this in the same category as a traffic stop gone bad, that's an insult to good cops everywhere.



Yeah I would, but at the same time I'd be giving my client the third degree. I have no illusions about the world around me, medi. This was assault, period.
 
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MelenaZ

Member
Search MAP, I think we have a thread on the Las Vegas lawyer who showed up to court intoxicated and blew twice the legal limit. The vids total about 3 hours of hilarity.
 
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Tazmaniak89

Member
Sure, there are two sides to every story. I tell my clients that. Most of them, after discussions, will acknowledge their fault in the sitch in my experience. Too bad this story's most important side was caught on tape. and spitting and threatening... not good enough to justify the use of excessive force, by the way.


"excessive force" is indeed the point in question ....do you judge these men guilty before trial ...or has the age old presumption innocent till proven guilty been abolished by the bar association ?

The video does show a damning placing of the officers knee near the suspects neck...admittedly.....but it does not show a choke ....and the very audible cry of "I cant breathe ) would possibly show that in fact there was no restriction of the throat area at all ..

would a person spitting in your face not constitute an assault ?....especially with the spread of contagious disease via spittle ? the physical act is disgusting but the added trauma of undergoing tests for Hep and TB etc would surely make it a worse assault than a mere push ...

Respectfully

Smurf
 
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SixpacksL

Member
Hi Gangrelchilde,

Once again, watching the small video, does not show the verity of the whole event, and it is easy to "If...dog....rabbit" if you are not a police officer which you are not.

You had stated in your previous post that the subject was "Prone", ... this is not true and plays an important role to the use of force if the subject does not comply. This over site on a lawyer's verbage or stating that the subject was "prone" could of made a big difference in a court of law, especially if there was no camera to record what happen ( which in this case I'm glad for the officers that it was recorded, this will be very helpful in the court case.). F.Y.I...Prone is laying on your "Bone", Supine is lying on your "Spine" which is what this "Bone Head" was doing, {He was not prone !!!!), which is a very dangerous thing for officers, that is why officers coofftopicnd you to, "get on your stomach".

Nordic understands this.

Although some of my statements in prior post may be looked upon as "appealing to peoples fears", or "this was not a shoot out" all calls have the potential for this possibility due to the subject struggling, obtaining the officer's duty weapon, and then using the officer's gun against them, which happens many times in the U.S.A.. This has resulted in many officers being killed, that is why it is so important to cuff the subject in a "prone" position, which is what they are taught in the academy, and through the officer's career. Now with this said, Yes....If an officer has suffered some type of "vicarious trauma" it can effect his or her judgment in what is or what could lead up to a lethal episode ( in their mind)...( and yes this may cause an officer to act out inappropriately). ....I do not think this is the case in this video. As a matter of fact, and in my opinion, when this goes to court, the officers involved will not receive any type of legal action against them (criminally) I’ll bet on that from experience, however in this day and age where a person can sue you for the temperature of the coffee that they spilled on themselves, you can bet there will be a civil suit, which will be settled out of court for an undisclosed amount, once again, the officers will probably have to attend training on the use of force or sensitivity training.

I still stand by my post in-reference to...

"who are you going to call, and how much force should be used when the police arrive, if someone is coming after you or one of your family members and it is a life or death issue? " Most people on this forum I'm sure agree with where I am going with this, if not let me know.

Gangrelchilde...what's the other alternative, and what do you suggest, are you going to take the law into your own hands?.... you may need one of your friends in law to defend you, .......better to leave these matters to us the law enforcement professionals, and then you can apply the law afterwards, which to me is the easy Part!

I'd much rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 !!!!! LOL


IMHO....

Also...

Gangrelchilde....Thank you for the thread on "Map" I will tell you about the biting lawyer incident, it is really funny.

also.....


Looking at your avatar pic (before) You were a really good looking guy! ....and then the (after) picture.....Wow!,.... is that what happens to a person after they have to deal with little juvenile delinquents as long as you have? ......Just kidding. I was in juvenile rehabilitation for 11 years as a counselor, I know how that feels.



IMO, respectfully,
Kew-Do
 
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cobra03vrooooom

Member
The audible words of the Suspect were "I can't breathe".....again if he can speak clearly, then there was no pressure on his throat area. To say that he became even less compliant because of that is ridiculous. He could have then said "I give" and submitted to his arrest. The fact that he may have "sounded" like he was outta air was probably because he was....from running!

We as practicing martial artists know that if we attack the air way the person on the receiving end wouldn't be able to speak clearly if that.....at least that has been my personal experience. Let's face it, some people just don't get it. In this case the suspect didn't get it....his arrest that is

Now as for the Officer's actions, thats what investigations/probes are for.......

And as for being the Attorney for the accused, am I gonna wanna show the most damaging evidence towards the Police Officer?? You betcha!!

But as the Lead Investigator(s) of this incident, they are tasked with not only trying to see if the Officer was justified, but also if they were simply out of line for the given circumstances. So it goes back to a system of check and balance for LE.
 
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iLuvMiPup

Member
No, if they had him under control he would have been cuffed, searched for weapons and in the cruiser. He was still fighting them and without knowing if he had a weapon and the fact that they were close enough that he could grab at one of their weapons, the officers took action to encourage him to surrender. That's all he had to do, just do nothing and let them cuff him.

The simple answer here is you don't run from or fight the police. Even simpler would have been, don't commit the crime in the first place.
 
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JenWales

New member
not seeing the lead of to that clip can anyone really say if it the officers went overboard? the police put their life on the line everyday they work so to make a snap judgement on such little evidence would ge wrong.
 
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LeonK

New member
So true (g-bells y-town) and (bcullen)....

Qoute from bcullen...

"No, if they had him under control he would have been cuffed, searched for weapons and in the cruiser. He was still fighting them and without knowing if he had a weapon and the fact that they were close enough that he could grab at one of their weapons, the officers took action to encourage him to surrender. That's all he had to do, just do nothing and let them cuff him.

The simple answer here is you don't run from or fight the police. Even simpler would have been, don't commit the crime in the first place."

This will also be offered as a justification for the type of force used against this subject who was in a "supine" position not following officer's directives to submitt to arrest..... when this goes to a court of law.

The Prosecuting Attorney in our jurisdiction would charge this guy with whatever the initial stop was, resisting arrest, etc... and make the charges stick. No pleading down to a lesser charge when you fight officers. We send a very strong message about this type of behavior where I am from.

Kew-Do
 
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TaraT

Member
To those who have said they were justified, absolute tosh.

That cop purposefully switched hands so he good give the perp a thrashing. His partner was already working on the cuffs by the looks of it.
 
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Shakelnlbake

New member
Visage I would have ("Purposefully") switched hands to get a better shot too, I wouldn't have hit him in the face though, I would have hit him in an area that would have caused a more (para-sympathetic) effect, and to not leave any marks. This would have been performed to therapeutically bring the assailant under control with the least amount of force used as well as ensuring the safety of self and others.

This additionally would have been written in my report.

Kew-Do
 
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