Poll: Belief in pseudoscience/paranormal phenomena

C

certifiednut

New member
A quick JAMA search on Actupuncture, abstracts are free to read. http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/search?fulltext=acupuncture

And chiropractic medicine: http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/search?fulltext=chiropractic+medicine

I'm actually a bit offended at chiropractic medicine being included on this list as most people tend to visit chiropractors to address skeleto-muscular issues. I've had my spine and joint re-aligned, and it's not really quackery. There is certainly a movement today to move chiropractic medicine more into line with spinal and joint issues and away from its roots.
 
M

M@ng0

New member
Stuff that hasn't been proven can also work, in fact it's highly unlikely that anything you ingest will not have some effect on the body. So in fact you're simply arguing that some herbal treatments haven't been proven to your satisfaction.

Do you demand to see relevant papers on the bodily benefits of Vitamin C before buying an orange?
 
M

MrseDoyle

Member
You've finally become a proper manager. Cold and hard of heart to the core. Can't even tell when there's a ghost around

I have a fairly open mind about stuff. I take most of it with a pinch of salt but I'm not going to dismiss anything just because some wako waves his arms around and calls them all frauds.

Astrology does have some truth to it. That's proper astrology and not the lame tabloid crap we can read everyday. The fact of the matter is our environment does effect us and other animals in various different ways. While it might seem far fetched to look at the positions of the planets and stars in trying to predict those effects, it actually isn't. The gravitational forces around us govern the tides and the seasons which in turn govern animal behaviours. Migration patterns, feeding and breeding patterns. While the sun and the moon are often quoted as being the main sources of gravitational influence, all the planets play a role. If we lose one the Earths' orbit around the sun is affected and as a result the regular clockwork cycle changes.

I'm not really sure what the distinction is between Psychics and ESP. But I do think there is something going on there. I don't believe in things like communing with the spirits. However I do believe it is possible our sense of the world may go beyond the traditional five senses of touch, taste, sight, hearing and smelling.

There are in fact many creatures in the world who's sight is sensitive to ultraviolet light for example. Scorpions can even see the polarised light of stars which is invisible to us. Birds are thought to navigate using the Earths' magnetic field.

I think it's also possible for our senses to combine in ways that may make them seem like something totally new. People who are affected by conditions like synthesia and autism are often more perceptive of things the rest of us just wouldn't notice. It should also be noted that our vision is limited to what our brain decides is useful. Which is why sometimes you can't see something even though you're looking right at it with a clear field of view.

I think it's also fairly obvious that complimentary and alternative medicines will have some truth in them. A proper massage has long since been accepted to help people relax and relieve aches and pains and help blood circulation. If you're improving a patients blood circulation and relieving stress at the same time then it's a no brainer there's going to be a measurable positive result.

I also think it's a no brainer that people would dismiss herbs and other plants as having no medicinal effects. Many of the active ingredients found in modern medicines come from plant sources. Why then is it so hard to believe a herbal remedy might actually work? Granted many of them might not. But then again there is a growing trend for the pharmaceutical industry to invent syndromes to match their concoctions. It's not that hard to cure a condition if your tailoring the conditions to the cure.

All of the faith healing I have seen involves some sort of contact or near contact with the hands. That's just another massage technique and nothing to do with god or anything else. On the other hand, where a simple blessing is used I think it's just hokuspokus. I wouldn't bother with any crystals that have been specially charged up with ki/chi/qi either.

Other than forcibly wrenching your body back into alignment I'm not sure what else Chiropractors do. It's just a brutal, but seemingly effective form of physiotherapy. I'm also guessing Chiropractors get results because they do the work and don't just lecture you about exercises you might want to do to correct the problem. They also see to be a tad less stuck up.

Dowsing is again another form of ESP. Dowsers use all sorts of things to help them find what they're looking for. Again it's possible their senses may be subconsciously picking up on things we normally miss. They could even be sensitive to tiny fluctuations in the Earths' gravitational field. Or perhaps they're just really good at reading the lay of the land.
 
A

AnimeFan

Member
Chiro and acupuncture (assuming this is aprt of "alternative medicine, and S.O. else already brought it up) are borderline, not in the category of homeopathy and astrology. Most statistical studies show that, for back pain at least, chiro, physical therapy, and surgery are all about equally effective (on average they are all better than placebo, though not by very much). Chiro is based on theories that are utter horsehockey, but under our barbaric medical system in the states at least it is a way to get your medical insurance to pay for a good massage.

Acupuncture seems to work for certain types of pain, but traditional acu is no better than sham acu (pins placed at random.) In other words, there seems to be benefit in it but the elaborate traditional theories about placement of the pins and flow of chi are groundless.

Surprised to see so many people defending herbal remedies here. A few of these may work, but anything marketed as an herbal or nutritional remedy is by definition unproven. If it could be shown to be safe and effective, it would be sold at much greater profit as a drug.
 
R

RSJ

Member
Your forgetting the big pharmaceuticals have a pretty tight grip here and there's limited profit in anything that can't be patented.

Acupuncture does do something to the body. The healing effects may be debatable however I do distinctly remember a story on the news where acupuncture was used to half sedate fish for shipping while they are still alive.

http://www.cnn.com/FOOD/news/9901/19/fish.acupuncture/
 
X

Xplorer

New member
Unproven or merely not yet proven? The fact of the matter remains that there is little research on herbal remedies as of yet, though that is beginning to change. Yes not every claim is being upheld, this is true. However to discount an entire modality of therapy based upon a few claims is absurd. If you are going to take an herb, the responisble thing to check the literature to see if that particular herb has evidence that supports the claims.
 
S

stewlesss

New member
No doubt some herbals will eventually be shown to be effective. Quinine for example started out as a traditional medicine used by South American Indians. However, especially given the long history of counterproductive health measures, from leeches to sweat lodges to laudanum cough syrup, I wouldn't use any kind of therapy on the grounds that it might, someday, possibly, be shown to be valuable. Most of the literature available on herbals consists of marketing pieces paid for by manufacturers and retailers, not well designed and statistically rigorous studies. Sorry to repeat my earlier comments, but if valid studies exist and show that a substance is safe and effective, it will not be sold as an herbal remedy or nutritional supplement, but as (in the states) an FDA approved and regulated drug.
 
M

marksjoe95

New member
and yet you seem to be claiming they don't work. Which is just that, a claim. If you are taking a stand from either side then you need to back it up.

Edit. Sorry, that's unfair. You did put a couple of links in. /edit

Otherwise it is just conjecture.


If you are merely stating your opinion.

The other problem here is that you are lumping together a lot of different fields and theories. Some more sound than others.

P.S. - I'm not qualified to comment to any degree on any of the mentioned therapies. But I am willing to share my views.
 
H

Haylz

Member
well acupuncter works, i had it done on me when my back kept cramping up, the needles actually sting though, not a whole lot, less than a shot, way less, but it only sort of helped.
 
S

SamTheBam

New member
What? If someone makes a claim that substance X cures baldness, or that acupuncture relieves back pain, or whatever, the burden is on them to show that this is true, not on anyone else to show that it is not. Otherwise, any bllucarp claim about anything in the world would have equal validity to it's negation. Can you prove that I am not an avatar of Vishnu? That Saturn is not made of cheese? That there is no Santa Claus?

We have to operate on the assumption that, if there is no evidence for a claim, it is false. My plans for this afternoon involve going to a Kempo class after work, then going home. It's possible that class will be cancelled due to a snowstorm - very unlikely in Los Angeles in August, but possible - but I have to operate on the assumption that this will not happen. I can't prove that my house has not been devoured by toxic microbes carried from Mars by a meteorite, which would make it a bad idea to go home after class. Yet, I am going to go anyway, on the much more likely assumption that everything is OK.
 
R

ryan_pal2007

New member
No.

I demand to see relevant papers on the bodily benefits of vitamin C if its being sold to me in the form of an expensive preparation as a medicine.

Let's be clear. What this is about is selling prescriptions for medical conditions with no basis in fact for their efficacy. And at a very high premium.

That is at best disingenuous and at worst preying on the naievty of the credulous.

Mitch
 
W

w00tw00t69xx

Member
That's not correct. Some of these medicines have basis in fact for their efficacy. Some don't.




So have you bought vitamin tablets without viewing reports as to their effectiveness?
 
M

MiceandMe

New member
If you buy herbals without doing the research, then yes indeed you are a sucker. Plain and simple. That said, there are plenty of resources online which are reliable- everything from the FDA, PubMed through sites dedicated to compiling actual research on herbals.

And you might want to reconsider your views on pharaceudicals. I am the last one to say that medications are bad, as in the course of my studies and clinicals I know first hand how they have worked to the advantage of people. However, saying that if a herbal remedy were effective it would be a pill is a complete misunderstanding of how pharms are developed. It is also ignoring the history of pharmaceuticals themselves.

Once again, if you have decided to take something the burden is on you to do the research. Ignoring a modality merely because some remedies are not effective is not the best course. Many of today's meds are actually not all that effective, yet you would take them without doing any research?
 
B

bikenut02

New member
The thing about "pseudoscience" is that one needs to be cautious, particularly where money is involved. Kinda like the Reiki discussion in Traditional Healing. My experiences with reiki have been very positive - but note that they've also been FREE.

I use herbs quite a bit. Or at least I did when I wasn't pregnant. The only thing I'm trying now (near term, not before) is raspberry leaf tea. That's also after doing research on it. But usually I stick with ones I know for little, simple things, in a form that I trust to at least not be too harmful. (Generally a commercially prepared tea, like Celestial Seasonings).

I do think there may be something to ESP and psychics, but again I don't pay a lot of money for that sort of thing.

I do (co-)pay for my chiropractor's services. But considering that I've had very little back pain throughout this pregnancy, it's been worth every penny.

The bit of acupuncture that I've had has appeared beneficial as well.

It's a buyer beware situation - make certain that you are the one who decides where your money goes, and how much of it.
 
K

kelly26

New member
Are you actually aware of the theory/nonsense behind mainstream Chiropractic?

Here’s an interview with a scientific Chiropractor who discuses the claims behind mainstream Chiropractic.

http://media.libsyn.com/media/skepticsguide/skepticast2007-03-28.mp3
 
H

happyt

New member
The fact that our environment effects us is a far stretch from the claims of astrology, which are easily disproved by looking at twin studies.

See this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iunr4B4wfDA


What does that have to do with extra sensory perception?


Of course. But the points not that they do nothing, but whether they can do what it is claimed they can do. So they only can be said to work if they do what they say they do. The fact they may have an effect doesn’t mean they are working, it only mean they have an effect.


Are you suggesting we accept/believe in it until proven otherwise?
I don’t think anyone is dismissing an entire “modality of therapy,” they are just saying that they will not accept it until it is proven. In fact, it’s not technically incorrect to say CAM is and always will being wrong, because then you think about it, once something it is proven, it will not longer be CAM, it will be moved over to scientific medicine.


Well said.


I don’t say they don’t work, I just say they’ve not been proven. So all I’m doing is withholding belief/acceptance.
 
Top