Refusing to go to War (edit)

Ah, I see now. Good point well made. I suspect we need to blame the prehistoric amoeba

I think that what's important now though is for everyone to sit back and think about what we can do right now to help.

jonmonk gets out his guitar and starts singing Bob Dylan songs... badly
 
I do avoid fights at all possible, but if push comes to shove I will take teh dangerous variable out of the equasion by any means neccesary. If I am hit I will most definietely hit back, and if they keep coming I will do what it takes to be the one who walks away. Once the attack is made I feel that the door is open. Now if I am a Shodan and have that skill, which I don't as of yet, there are other, kinder options (i.e. submission, lock them out, etc.) but it is ultimately up to the attacker. But this is not what the original thread was supposed to be about....
 
Back to the original thread then.....



Listen, if you think sacrificing the good life you have here in America to defend a cause in which you don't believe in is foolish than fine, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But we mustn't slam honorable soldiers for enlisting in the military (and many have after 9/11) to defend your right to sit on your buttocks at home and criticize the war and anyone involved in it. The troops there are trying to make a difference. That's a hell of a lot more than what you can say.
 
if you don't wanna fight to protect your country, then you are a coward and a begger, people have died time and time again to protect the rights and liberties that we enjoy today, if you don't wanna fight, don't join the army, and hope it dosen't come to conscription. if you don't wanna fight for the country, go to canada, it would do you some good to spend a few days in iraq at this point. also hadou-ken, check out the newly established Tekken thread.
 
It comes down to the fact you volunteered yourself when you joined the militarily. You would have to be very slow indeed if you didn’t realize the purpose of the militarily was to kill people.

As far as being drafted you still don’t have to go. You have two choices one is to refuse and take the jail time. The other is to run for the border and give up you citizenship. In the second case you should never be allowed back in the country.

There is a third choice that was used in W.W.I and W.W.II. There were a number of people for religious reasons would not take a life but they did not refuse service. They asked to be unarmed stretcher carriers and ambulance drivers. I understand their causality rate was high because everyone knew they were unarmed. They served with just as much honor as anyone.
 
...I doubt many of those soldiers who died in terrible pain on the battlefield for our freedom spent their final seconds feeling proud of their sacrifice, they probably laid there wishing they'd stayed home, does that make them cowards....no! it means they didn't want to die a painful death.

...and as for all the Canada jokes let me quote you a few WWII figures

These are Allied Military Casualties (Dead/Missing/Injured) as percentage of population

China     0.689
Poland     0.943
U.K.     1.46
France     1.43
Australia     1.00
India     0.0278
New Zealand    1.5
So. Africa    0.23
Canada     0.836
Belgium     0.35
Holland     0.233
U.S.S.R.     13.92
U.S.A.     0.465

These figures came from http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob62.html

So leave Canada alone!
 
The only references I have read about Canada is that if one doesn't want to serve in this country then go to Canada...which is not too uncommon. Don't know where you're comin from on that one.
 
Perhaps being from UK you are unaware of "conscientious objectors" crossing US borders into Canada to escape serving in the military.

I am with Hyo on where you're comin from on that one.
 
My view in short:

Concientous Objector is an acceptable category. But if your number is called up you should have these options:
1. Serve in the Military
2. Serve in a significant Non-Military Social Capacity
3. Serve time.

I'm all for real manditory service if the need should arise. But if thats the case concientous objectors should be expected to contribute to the nation in another important way. If that doesn't work then live out your belief in incarceration. And that's not a reactionary stance, its a socially fair one.

However, no one who joins the armed forces should suddenly be able to declare concientous objector status in time of conflict. I hate to be the jerk who says it but put that person in the brig. If you truely believe that a war is unjust, then you must follow your concence, even into jail. It sucks, but it also demonstrates conviction to belief folks. But once you become a soldier you give up the right to say "I think", "I feel", etc.

Though I also believe that the US needs to get rid of this "Army of One" hooey. Individualism and armed service don't mix.

- Matt
 
And that's where I disagree with the whole scenario. I don't think the war in Iraq has in ANY WAY defended my freedom, or anyone else's. As I said before, if there was an obvious threat to my freedom, or to the safety of my country, then I'd consider joining the military.

I think what he's saying is that Canada sent a greater percentage of its population to WWI than the United States did. Also, I don't see what the big problem with conscientious objectors crossing into Canada is. If people disagree with what their government is trying to force them to do, don't they have the right to leave the country? I've never understood the apparent animosity many Americans have toward both conscientious objectors and to Canada for allowing them to come here. You guys sitck to your beliefs by going to war, and we stick to ours by not going to war. Can't people realize that we disagree on the causes and justifications for going to war, and stop trying to portray us as being weak or cowardly because we have a different viewpoint? I bet that 9 times out of 10 it's not being afraid of serving for your country or even dying for it that causes people to avoid military service, but instead it's a disapproval of the reason behind that service.
 
The only issue I have (and I can't believe that I sound so reactionary) is with those who come back as soon as the conflict is over. And quite frankly I think I'd be ticked at those folks if I was a Canadian.

Again, I'm down with the Conscientious Objector, but if you're serious about it you stay and you actively work to change the system. You don't come and go based on convenience.

- Matt
 
I agree. Though you have to admit, it must be hard for people who are very patriotic and love their country, but disagree with what the present government is doing, especially if they voted for a candidate who didn't win. I'm kinda playing devil's advocate here, but do you think (for example) someone who voted Democrat based on the whole no-war platform should be forced by a Republican president to go to war? What if this Democrat were to just temporarily leave the country, and return when he was more pleased with the politcal atmoshpere?
 
Ok, I fit in that category. I didn't vote for Bush in 2000 or 2004. And I've actively participated in anti-war rallies. I should note that I don't think we can morally bring out troops home at this point.

As for the rest, go back and reread my views.

- Matt
 
No! Short and simple. I am with Matt on this one, I didn't vote for W, but no matter what I voted for he is the President of my country. I may not agree with him, his decisions, or anything else about him, but as a patriot I will not tuck tail and hide just because I don't like the dude in the oval office. If someone is gonna move to another country for a political reason such as they don't want our country to go to war then they should stay gone! That being said, I was for the war in the beginning...with the talk of WMD's and such. But IMO we as a country were lied to. The soldiers, no matter where they serve, are doing their job. They don't have a choice other than don't join the armed forces. So I support each and every one of them, they are regular people tolerating unimaginable parameters in life right now.
As for the whole "they don't fully understand" argument about young men/women signing up with the military....that is just sidestepping responsibility! If one thinks they can join the military and not ever go to war...hell don't join. Everyone who goes in the military knows that one day they may be called on to fight in a war, that is what they are trained for from day one!
 
==Exactly, my point. I have no damn clue how invading another country made the US in any way safer at this very moment. What, by invading Iraq the US prevented terrorism ? Not from what I've seen. How many terrorist attacks have there been AFTER Iraq was invaded ? And how many US soldiers daily get killed IN Iraq because of simply being in the country ?
The Iraq War had nothing to do with protecting the freedom of the US..not in any way. If Iraq would have invaded the US then they would have had the right to protect themselves..but invade Iraq because Osama Bin Laden crashed two planes into the Twin Towers ? Whatever did Saddam have to do with Osama Bin Laden ?
As for calling people not wanting to join the military cowards: I could call you likewise idiots for wanting to run into a gun. Hey, make it easy on yourself and shoot yourself if you are so eager to get killed. I certainly know I'm not a coward for not enlisting in the military.
 
And just because you 'have no damn clue' which actually reflects the position of many objectors to the Iraq-Attack, it does not mean that it was not the right thing to do. The world did not have a clue about Hitler and his Germany at the time, and look where that turning a blind eye almost took the world. I notice you used the words 'at this very moment'. And that is the problem...everyone is so shortsighted, they cannot see the forrest through the trees.

Maybe the intelligence was flawed about Iraq. Maybe the immediate threat to the world was not as great as was suggested. But the instability in the entire region was real. The killing of hundreds of thousands within Iraq was real. The need for a democracy in that region to start turning the tide and stabalizing the entire region and thus the entire globe was and is very real. Those countries who wished to adopt a democracy but did not for fear of reprisal from unstable leaders are more likely to begin that movement. Those who will see the success of democracy in Iraq will be able now to start thinking differently and see that it is possible.

The attacks on US soldiers has dropped substantially. The voters turned out in droves, even over the incredible fear they had in order for their voices to be heard...in order to be free. And still the objectors keep coming out to brag about how opposed they were/are to the whole thing. I keep seeing comments regarding how the US should now pull out of Iraq. This is the dumbest, most ininformed, unintelligent, short sighted thing I have ever witnessed. At this point, objectors are obviously just stubborn and do not want to admit that they can see the amazing progress that has been made...even if the whole world can see it.

For those of you that think that if you just leave things alone then they will go away and everything will improve itself and be peaceful...wake up! Would you leave a festering wound in hopes that it will heal itself? If you would leave it to itself then you deserve the gangrenous infection that would follow.

I can only hope that the US, and even moreso other nations, start doing their part and go into other highly unstable regions like the Sudan and others to try to bring some semblance of peace and freedom. Maybe if other nations started acting like they had some backbone instead of always going anti-american and giving more power to the murderous terrorists, then perhaps things would improve quicker, and less people would die.

But, then again, what do I know...
 
no, thats not what i meant, you are not a coward for not enlisting, the cowards are the ones who enlist and then desert, or the ones who run to canada when called upon. those are the cowards, you signed up, u got paid, you'd better get going, even if you didn't enlist and your country calls on you, get packing or get out of the country.
 
MarioBro said:
And just because you 'have no damn clue' which actually reflects the position of many objectors to the Iraq-Attack, it does not mean that it was not the right thing to do. The world did not have a clue about Hitler and his Germany at the time, and look where that turning a blind eye almost took the world. I notice you used the words 'at this very moment'. And that is the problem...everyone is so shortsighted, they cannot see the forrest through the trees.

You kwow this answer of yours reflects how many Americans react to Europeans and their point-of-view. What, you think you can see the forest through the trees because you are from the US ? All of us Europeans are dumb because we have no clue what really happens in Iraq or happened beforehand ? Just to remind you, our TV stations don't get censored. At some points we knew more of what was happening in Iraq than half the American population. And comparing Saddam with Hitler is an outrage. I'm German and I have been to a concentration camp and what Hitler did does not in any way compare with what Saddam "allegedly" did to his people. And I use the words "at this very moment" because frankly I see no solution to terrorism...not in the short and not in the long-term. You think taking out all middle eastern countries by bombing them or converting them to democracy will prevent a lunatic like Osama Bin Laden from terrorising the US ? Not a chance. And frankly, converting other Religions to Christianity by bringing in democracy or trying to change the poeple is something of a genocide comparable to what Hitler did with the Jews (as you already compared Saddam to Hitler !). So does that make what the US did right ? Leave the poeple to find their own solutions and stop playing the savior of all living poeple.
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Punisher to do a quote properly you have to include an open [ QUOTE ] bracket and a close [ /QUOTE ] (minus the spaces), I only mention because your inclusion of large quotes with no seperation is a little confusing.
 
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