Shooting in Texas

Easy, gang. This is a discussion forum. And, while I urge everyone to be measured and considerate in their posts, I also think we need to be careful not to rely too heavily on the "you didn't serve, so you can't comment" argument.

It wasn't phrased very diplomatically, certainly, but holyheadjch has a right to an opinion. Just as everyone reacting to him has a right to theirs. But let's try and turn it down a notch or two and try to concentrate on the actual points being made.

Clearly, holyheadjch is not setting out to speak ill of veterans. He's (somewhat bluntly) expressing concerns that firearms and mental health issues aren't a terrific combination. I can see some truth to that myself. Certainly, particularly in the current climate, one of the first things a mental health professional would try and ascertain is whether the client had access to a firearm.

Now, soldiers are slightly different from, say, college students in that possession of a firearm is a part of their daily life. But I don't think it's completely out of left field to suggest what holyheadjch has suggested. Loud noises can trigger PTSD events, yes? And the more closely the noise approximates the original stressor, the more likely it'll be to trigger an episode, I'd presume. Gunfire, being quite precisely the original stressor, in particular.

All that said, the victim is clearly a hero. And his intentions were clearly good. So I think it would have been in better form to phrase your reservations differently. We all make mistakes. Happily, they don't generally cost us our lives. But he chose to tackle a very serious issue (one that doesn't get aptly addressed by our own government), made a mistake, and paid with his life.

I think it's possible to regret his loss, have reservations about his approach, AND respect his memory. I urge everyone to consider that.


Stuart
 
This man was murdered less than 48hrs ago. Do you realy think this stament does not sound even a little offensive? Would you still think so if it were your brother that was murdered?

We, at this point have NO idea what Mr. Kyle was doing to help his brother in arms. Has any reports even said he invited or suggested that this man go to the range with him, or that it was some form of therapy, as you have suggested?




base·less
[beys-lis] Show IPA
adjective
having no base; without foundation; groundless: a baseless claim.
( http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/baseless?s=t )
Nope, thats excactly what I though/meant.

We agree on one thing at least.
 
I read a quote from him something along the lines of:

"I've killed 160 people but I know I could die and stand in front of God with a clear Conscience".

160 people. That's 160 people murdered in a fairly pointless war. And because it's in a different country he is a hero? I understand that death is neccessarypart of War, but all I canthink is that that is 160 families without a Brother/Sister/Husband/Wife.

One person dies it's a tragedy, a million people die it's a statistic".
 
Well, I for one am relieved that I no longer own the most controversial post in this thread.
 
War is war. As callous as it sounds, aside from our troops I only feel sorry for the non combatants over there.
 
Using a shooting range as support for a distressed veteran isn't something that Chris Kyle dreamed up on its own.



http://news.msn.com/us/iraq-war-vet-charged-in-fatal-shooting-of-former-navy-seal?ocid=ansnews11

ANY sort of therapy for a veteran with PTSD may not prevent suicide or homicide. Take a disturbed vet whitewater rafting and he could snap and kill someone. Take a disturbed vet to a quiet conference room for a "and how did that make you feel" chat and the same can happen. Such deaths are painfully common. What we have here is a case of disproportionate coverage because the victim was famous and because people are making a big deal out of it happening at a shooting range. If a disturbed veteran killed two other vets at a VFW Post, it likely would not even be "newsworthy." Sad but true.

Isolating veterans with PTSD by suggesting that people who are not licensed therapists should not reach out to them and try to connect with them (in particular suggesting this of other veterans) would cost far more lives than it would save.
 
RIP and condolences to his family and friends.

Right now we don't have the required details to know if this shooter showed any reason he would be a danger at the range. The guy could have shown only mild systems of PTS and was just going out with the guys for some fun.

Who knows until we have more information but I don't believe he would have taking him if the guy had show any signs of losing it.
 
Stalin (to whom that quote is generally attributed) killed millions of unarmed civilians out of paranoia or political machinations. This sniper killed armed insurgents who, if not killed, would have killed US soldiers or Iraqi civilians. There's no comparison. None.
 
I know Stalin killed Millions, I read up on him.

This guy killed enemy soldiers who were fighting on their homeland where America has no right to be. If thousands of Russians invaded America and one sniper killed 160 of American troops he would be hated by Americans, worshipped by Russians, and I would still think that 160 people getting murdered was wrong, and one person should never be proud of it.
 
A big part of treating PTSD is connecting with others who have "been there, done that" and may have dealt with similar issues, as well as building camraderie with other vets as well as being exposed to factors that may be a part of your PTSD in a positive light. Spending a day at the range with some fellow vets, telling war stories, plinking targets, and enjoying the serenity and fun would only be beneficial to most sufferers of PTSD. They have meetups like this amongst vets all the time through a variety of organizations in order to assist our brothers and sisters in arms. A psychiatric background is not required.

From the pieces I've read so far, it sounds like they went there to do some long distance shooting with rifles but the suspect decided he wanted Kyle's truck, pulled out a handgun, and shot them both before stealing the truck. They could have been at a knitting party and it probably would have went down the same way.

As far as his record during the Iraqi war - A soldier fights in a war to survive and to help his friends get home. It's their duty, and failure to do so will either get their comrades killed or get themselves killed. Murder is unlawful killing. If you are attacked and kill your attacker, do you want to be considered a murderer for defending yourself? Similarly - if someone is attempting to kill your family or friends and you kill them to stop them, do you want to be considered a murderer?

It's unknown how many American and Iraqi civilian lives he saved through his actions. Considering he was chewing up the same dirt as I was in 2008, he could have very well been providing overwatch for me at some point and have used his skills accordingly to get me home to my wife and kids. For that reason alone I have a ton of respect and gratitude towards him. The fact that he came home and did not forget his fellow servicemembers and gave so much to help them only makes him more of a hero in my eyes. Let's try to have a little class and not take so ill of the dead right away.
 
Killing people is never something to be proud of. But if you are a member of the armed forces and are in a situation where you have to kill people then that's your job and you do it. If you disagree with taking life then you shouldn't have signed up in the first place.

To portray service people as 'murderers' is naive. Sure there are circumstances where innocent people get murderered by servicemen, and there have been many cases where those responsible have been punished for their crimes. And other circumstances where they have got away scot-free.

You can't label them all as 'murderers' any more than you can say that their uniform makes them above the law. It's two sides of the same coin.
 
I'm with holy on this but god-damn that boy could use some lessons in tact.
"Diplomacy" doesn't seem to be his middle name.
 
Don't take my words the wrong way, but that is only true from a legal pov, which in turn is only important while you are wearing this mortal coil.

Also, let's not start debating whether the man is right in his belief in God or not. For the sake of the argument we just work with the fact that he believes in god.

The man mentioned standing in front of God, which means each and every one of those 160 kills need to be just in the eyes of God. For that, the requirements are slightly higher than 'it's my job'. If your job is to shoot people who arguably have the right to defend their sovereign country from an invasion, or who may only be shooting at you because you are attacking them yourself at that particular time, then that won't necessarily make it right in the eyes of God.
 
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