Shooting in Texas

It may already have happened near my neck of the woods.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/14/knitting-needle-stabbing-_n_849441.html
 
I don't understand this strange moral comparison between Iraqi insurgents and US soldiers being made here. They are absolutely not equivalent. We're not an invading force in Iraq and they aren't merely protecting the sovereignty of their country. Iraqi civilians want US soldiers there. They're scared at the prospect of our departure. For good reason. The insurgents are murderers and barbarians who kill Iraqi civilians for things like wanting a higher education, clean drinking water, and electricity. They target professors at universities and girls seeking educations. In Chris Kyle's book he describes seeing a torture room used by the insurgents full of blood and limbs where two developmentally disabled adults were recently tortured to death for nothing more than the amusement of their insurgent captors. Does anyone really believe US soldiers would behave in the same manner?

Chris Kyle repeatedly placed his own life in peril to save others during his service in Iraq. He was hailed as a hero because he saved so many lives. And he did it at considerable risk to himself. And then for him to come home and try to help vets and use the proceeds from his books to donate to wounded veterans speaks highly of his character. He was clearly a warm guy with a generous spirit. And furthermore, the guy was a father to two small children and a husband to a wife who had to worry for years about his safety because of his career only to lose him so tragically once he made it home. The whole situation is very unfortunate. The guy was obviously trying to do the right thing and got hurt for it.
 
They are not much more brutal than any resistance movement. The maquis committed atrocities in WWII, but they are celebrated as freedom fighters.

And whether Iraqi civilians wanted American soldiers there is not black or white, as many Iraqis are worse off now than they were before the war.
 
My sympathies to Mr Kyle's friends and relatives and fellow veterans.

What did strike me about this was the timing of the event - 1 or 2 days after a crazed Vietnam Vet in Alabama hijacked a bus, killed the bus driver and kidnapped a child suffering from Asperger's syndrome.

This all after the tragic events in Conneticut (spelling??) and the re-opening of Gun control legislation questions in the US. There is clearly an under-current of violence and culture with fire-arms in the US unlike anywhere else on the planet.

I do not claim to understand the American psyche, but some soul-searching within the hearts of Americans as to why the US is so obsessed with percussive fire-arms, surely will not go amiss.

This morning I saw a program on TV about Chicago's south-side where reformed kiddos were desperately trying to educate themselves and readjust to post gang society. One comment was "Its easier to get a hold of a gun than to get a job".

In tough times, you can see why folks will succumb to guns and the associated social culture and behaviour - and consequences.

In Mr Kyle's case, I doubt he knew any other way to relate to his friend, who he seemed to be genuinely trying to help.

Surely there is more to life than Guns for those disillusioned and marginalised in the US?
 
I think a point was being made about making heroes out of people who kill others for a living. Mr. Kyle was famous for his ability to calmly assassinate others from a distance with precision and cool. Now whatever your politics are, this is why we even know who he was or cared in the first place. If all life is sacred, then we can't claim the moral high ground and pretend that we went over there for the Iraqi's sakes and did the right thing.



No disagreement with the last paragraph. I don't think many would argue against that. The point is though, that if he was trying to help others without the correct training and supervision, especially considering the way he was helping dealt with the handling of deadly weapons, he ultimately made a mistake that cost he and a friend their lives. Surely you can salute the man yet still see the fault?
 
And now this...

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57568352-504083/christopher-dorner-update-he-could-be-anywhere-at-this-point-say-police-of-former-lapd-officer/

At some point, we have to stop with the excuses and subterfuge and admit we have a problem.
 
I suspect, but have no evidence whatsoever, that the root of the problem is tied up with notions of American freedom, which becomes the American dream, then one's rights(to bear arms to defend oneself etc); then when it all goes sour; some individuals and situations arise in tragedy.

This is a very simplified picture, but pretending that there is not a problem will not solve this aspect of American society and its collective psyche.
 
In the UK, we have a huge problem with drunkeness/drug-taking/football hooligan and subsequent mindless violence - this is very much part of our psyche and comes out of our history and pub culture.

Our drunken pub-culture, football hooliganism, mindless violence psyche seems to be growing stronger roots in the youth of European countries who ape the behaviour of UK kiddos.

Guns tend to be for organised criminality, but it is slowly growing in UK society too.
 
Erm...since when was gun crime growing in the UK?
 
In the 70s gun crime was non-existant outside of big criminality in Scotland. As best as I would know, pretty much the whole of the UK,

Since about somewhere in the 1980s, there has definitely been more guns available, certainly in Scotland, Manchester, Bradford/Leeds, Liverpool (the latter 3 from TV, popular press etc). London, Birmingham, Im not sure about.

How much actual "crime" Im not sure. There were turf war reports of gun crime between rival gangs in Liverpool, Manchester and Bradford/Leeds that I remember about 2000-2001 or so. About 2 years ago there was a Police wowan shot in Bradford that made the national news constantly for a while.

In my city Edinburgh, there are on/off gang feuds between rival drug gangs with the odd pistol popping since at least 2005 (maybe further back - its not something I do a Phd study of), but it is still fairly small scale. Edinburgh is not a place that will tolerate armed crime and it dies down quite quickly. However in the 1970s, this just did not happen at all.

What there is not, is the wanten gun violence like the US, noticeable exceptions being Hungerford in 1987 and Dunblane in 1996.

As best as I understand, there is greater supply of guns into the UK, mostly coming from eastern european traffickers' capability and willingness to smuggle guns into the UK.

There was a report of folk in Glasgow about 3 years ago or so, of guys in sheds converting replica guns into zip gun single shot pistols.

Whether this translates into a greater desire to use guns in low-life street criminality, I have no idea.

Our culture is much more about getting drunk and fist/feet brawls outside clubs etc - this I see just about evrey time I am out on a saturday night after 12 pm, pretty much everywhere in the UK.
 
Some broad categories.

UK:- a lot of drunken street brawls 'cos you looked the wrong way, looked at my GF's bum etc.

Europe (Italy, Belgium, France, Spain, not northern Europe) :- a lot of street violence usually associated with robbery. 2 aspects:- 1) a lot more immigrants and unemployment driving economic need to rob to survive 2) greater organised criminality and vendetta culture e.g. Italy and southern France particulalry Marseille and Corsica.

US:- wanten gun crime, for no particular reason beyond "the right to bear arms".

Philippines:- a lot more knife violence, as greater tolerance for carrying edged weapons than Europe.

After a while, these aspects become part of the culture.
 
I disagree, and two or three youngsters fighting outside of a nightclub that caters for many hundreds in a town or city of many thousands is hardly representative of a nations culture.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it isn't our culture. That is just a media hyped notion.
 
I counter disagree. Yes, it is not everyone in the UK - and our press to blow stuff up like this, but it is much more so than in Europe, where drunkeness and anti-social behaviour is much less socially acceptable. European (particularly southern European) bars tend to be much, much more civilised. There is street violence, but it tends to be more to do with robbery than gratuitious violence.
 
Recent figures would disagree with you.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jul/14/crime-statistics-england-wales
 
We have gun crime because we have criminals that use guns as a tool of their criminal activates.

We also use guns (where allowed) to protect our self's from criminals with guns and other deadly weapons and to protect our homes.
 
Fair enough Simon.

Just bear in mind, the report does point to reported crime, but it does point to a reduction in "violence".

My point is not that there is more or less "violence" in the UK, rather than "violence" tends to be related to alcohol/drugs in the UK, and is largely fist and feet, whereas in Europe it tends to be more associated with robbery and in the US, guns seem to be much more part of the pie.

However, I do not make studies of any of this.
 
That is part of the culture.

UK criminals will use weaponry, but rarely armed, unless for serious stakes.

UK LEOs are not armed unless part of special forces, which is basically a good thing, but I don't know how long this can continue. Every European country that I can think of (Ireland possible exception) has armed LEOs as standard.

However, a fired LEO is exceptionally unlikely to react like the fellow in LA.

In Switzerland, every male under the age of 42, is required by law, to stock a rifle and do a continuing national service till 42 years old. Recently there was a shooting in the south of Switzerland by some crazed/wronged gumby; but these events are exceptionally rare - as is armed criminality in Switzerland.

Switzerland is an example (but incredibly small) of a country that does allow its citizens to own arms without weekly bloodbath incidents.
 
When I first went to Italy I had the idea that Italy didn't have the binge drinking and fighting culture that Australia (and by the sounds of it the Uk) has. After spending a year there, I can honestly say young people get just as drunk and violent at night clubs/bars in Italy as anywhere else. Bouncers were tossing people out on the street, people were fighting late at night, lots of brawls at the soccer etc, it felt no different to cities at home.
 
It is catching on in European countries, but in general bar culture is more civilised than in the UK and probably a lot more so than in Oz. I can imagine some Aussie bars being very rowdy. I can also correlate it to a rise in football hooliganism - which used to be the specialist preserve of UK youth culture up to about the mid/late 1980s. There is also a commercial aspect to it as well i.e. milk kids of their money when they are drunk. There is a lot of aping of UK and American youth culture in European youth these days.

In Europe, by tradition, kids are introduced to drinking the odd glass of wine at home with their families at about 12 years old or so, as part of a family meal. Germany has well organised beer festivals that are much more civilised than what we have in the UK.

In the UK I sometimes see older folk engaging in drunken violence, but in Europe I have only seen youngsters at it. Some places in Europe are very dangerous on the streets but its mostly to do with immigrant tensions in inner cities e.g. Brussels or robbery e.g. Naples and Marseille.
 
Yeah, it was usually the 18-35 crowd that I saw in Italy fighting, except at the soccer, then it could be anyone. The biggest difference that I saw drinking wise was the type of drinking places. Night clubs were all the same, but during the daytime was a big difference. Here in Aus, the pubs and clubs (usually run by the RSL and sporting groups) are open at 10ish and people come in, play the pokies (slot machines), sit down and have drinks, gamble watch the football etc, have lunch or play pool and darts etc. They may spend most of the day there, or carry on into the night. You don't see this in Italy. Pubs and clubs as we know them are practically non-existent, you go to a coffee bar and order at the counter then either drink at the counter or a small bench with maybe a bite to eat then head off. There was nowhere really that you can sit all day watching the races, sport, or play the pokies while which is probably the reason less of the older people brawl than you might see here or the UK. It was at night time with the young people, at the bars and nightclubs where the fighting happened.
 
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