I agree. I hardly think that ALL of the Japanese people posed a threat to the American military.
Of course, either side would have done whatever was neccessary to win the war, but there's no way that what the Americans did was neccessary. Of course they would have sustained more causalties if they hadn't used the bombs, but that's what war is! When two imperialist nations have a clash of interests, military casualties result. However, there is NO WAY that completely destroying two civilian centers is acceptable. EVER. Period. Hapkido, I know you seem to feel that the bombs were justified, but as CKava said, there were other atrocities commited as well, and American policy in the war against Japan was to attack civillian rather than military targets, in an attempt to beat the Japanese people into submission. Killing defenseless and non-threatening people, who weren't directly contributing to the war effort, seems to be a rather deplorable strategy. Until you can provide sources showing just how those people were threatening (women, children, sick, and elderly included), I can't accept the statement that it was a defensive act on the part of the Americans.
I don't know why you people are talking about Japan. 80k and 50k people died, but the cities had military stuff there. Dresden, on the other hand, had nothing but a POW camp, and it was firebombed. ~100k people died. ALL civilians. Why don't you talk about that if you want to talk about atrocities.
The atomic bomb saved more lives than it put an end to. An invasion of Japan would've done a lot more damage to both us AND them. The atomic bombs, again, were no surprises! Both were ANNOUNCED to Japan, who refused to surrender even after the first! That is how fanatical the imperialists were, thankfully some had the decency to finally give up! Do you think people who would keep on fighting after the enemy announced that it had developed something like the A-bomb, and then dropped one, wouldn't bleed a country dry fighting off an invasion? This was no surprise attack, the US said "look, we have this, we have proof that we can decimate cities with this, just end this war now, you're already going to lose". Then the second one came, "look, we have this, we just levelled a city with it, just give up!" And I have no doubt that any sort of ground invasion would have been an utter disaster, one that would have claimed my grandfather, as his group was slated to be one of the first into the mainland assault should it happen. You think Vietnam was horrible? Having to take Japan bit by bit and hold it would have been far worse. And as for cities being bombed, this was not the 21st century here, people. There were no super accurate smart bombs, no spy satellites to ferret out the best targets, no cruise missiles. All countries could do was pound the crap out of each other until one came out victorious. We were fighting to defend ourselves, and that meant the end of Japan's government at the time, which had made it quite clear it was after us! Am I thankful that two cities had to be turned into radioactive wastelands to end the war? No. Am I thankful that someone high up in the government at the time finally had the decency to call a stop to the bloodbath? Yes! I'm thankful for the lives it saved on our side, I'm thankful for the lives it saved on theirs, too. I'm even thankful that It didn't take the ruination of that entire country to see an end to the enormous conflict that was world war 2. Say it was "just to shake the russians", or whatever excuse you'd like, the reason those bombs were dropped was to put and end to that hellstorm. Sure, it showed the Russians we had the bombs, but what did that do? It drove them to go and make them, too. Not much of an advantageous position. But I guess some people here must have known the men behind the decision to drop the bombs, since they seem to have such a vivid perspective of it.
Actually we never told them we would drop atomic bombs on them. all we said was if they didn't surrender we would do something bad (ok i don't know the exact words but it was along the lines of that). We never actually told them we would drop atomic bombs if they didn't surrender we merely hinted it. also, you cannot prove that it would have been worse if we didn't drop those bombs since that future never happened. for all you know the second we decided to not drop those bombs they could have surrendered (extremely unlikely but like i said, that future hasn't accured so anything could have happened). you cannot prove that it would have been worse if we didn't drop the bombs
but it could've been a lot worse, and that isn't the kind of risk i'd think is a very good idea, considering how bad it was. who knows, maybe if we hadn't invaded berlin, they would've surrendered days later.
so i guess what i'm trying to say here is...that is INCREDIBLY STUPID LOGIC.
i was watching a documentary a while back about japanese weapons of world war 2 and why they were so poor, one of the reasons being that near the end of the war the government was so desperate that they began having school children make them in their backyards.
generalizations? it was COMMUNISM. they FORCED it on the people. generalization? well hell communism is supposed to be a unified nation under one central government so yea i guess i was making a generalization....as for the napalm runs yea i even said that earlier before that they killed more people with their napalm runs then they did with both atom bombs combined. the heat waves from the napalm burning the heavily wooded cities was so hot the bomber's wings were ripping off from the rising heat. as for indiscriminantely burning cities?! yea NO. the u.s. would carpet bomb because there were no smart weapons back then....the only way to hit a strategic target was by leveling cities. on average, what a 1 smart bomb can do today would take 400 sorties flown by bombers in world war 2. u make it sound like they flew into japan and just starting burning towns for the hell of it which is far from the truth....
the allies could have easily carpet bomb Japan into no come back. and the germans and japanese are still suffering. the german economy still hasnt recovered and the japanese have serious armorment restrictions in place by the u.s.....and YES japan DID rebuild well. thats because we NUKED them instead of leveling the entire country. if u think that by invading japan would of just given up your wrong. they would of fought until the last straw bringing up every resource they can possibly do, look at their military tactics. bonzai charges (already stated in older posts) and the multiple types of kamakazees. they had 1 man torpedo submarines piloted by 1 person with a large warhead with the sole purpose of going into pearl harbor and blowing up ships, the crewman was never designed to return. also the kamakazee planes on american ships. they caused as much damage as possible by sacrificing themselves and an airplane.the way japan was going ( from the deteriating weapon qualities, one pistol was so poorly made if u pushed the side of the gun it would fire, to all the suicide missions) i wouldnt think it to be a stretch to see the imperialist government pulling up all available resources for a last ditch suicide mission to cause as much damage to the americans as possible.
wow...just.....ok im not even going to reply to that because id end up flaming you in the end
well by that logic maybe the wright brothers shouldnt of invented planes so by human evolution we would of grown wings and learned to fly! but we will never know because we did. if u drop a freaking atomic bomb on their city, they still do not surrender, and several hours later drop ANOTHER bomb on another city, do u HONESTLY think that there is any chance they would surrender until almost all of their troops are dead/captured? the president had strong statistics saying that if he invaded rather then dropped the bombs there would be alot more casualties on both sides. and even if we did invade and overthrow the japanese imperialists, look whats going on in iraq. the world is so pissed that the U.S. is occupying iraq while it rebuilds itself, but instead of the atom bombs being dropped you would rather have the U.S. support a massive nation after it had JUST rebounded from the great depression?
According to research based off of skirmish battles with Japan and the battles in Europe, the US would lose about 100k people, and Japan more than that.
I agree dropping the bomb was a bad idea, and not even warning them was ****ing evil, but it's better than an invasion.
What documentary was that? You aren't helping us out too much with ambiguous info like that.
Umm...I don't even know what to say to that. Japan has never been communist. They had an emperor during the war! That's not communism, it's a monarchy. I think your historical facts are a little bit shaky.
I don't think that invading Japan would have caused them to give up. What I do think is that the whole conflict was stupid, and the whole thing should have been avoided.
You are twisting Guitarboy's logic there. His outcome of Japanese surrender was at least probable. If you know anything about evolutionary biology you'll know there's no way that we could possibly grow wings.
You bet we're pissed. What business do Americans have invading Iraq, anyways? I don't want to start ANOTHER debate about the current war, but if the US really cared about the wealthfare of the global community, they'd have helped out with the crises in Africa or Haiti much more than they have.
while i agree with some of your points, i would kindly ask that you never make mention of communism again until you know what the hell you are talking about. continuing with these kinds of uninformed statements will result in cruel verbal lashings, inevitably ending with you in the corner crying. thank you for posting, and have a nice flight!
i think it was tales of the gun on the history channel.
bad choice of words on my part.
if it was avoided then the japanese would have invaded the U.S., the chinese, and countless other countries on their boarders. it was unavoidable
the entire wings thing was being sarcastic. i was trying to prove the point that saying "oh well since it didnt happen you will never know" is the worst reason on the face of the earth to taking military actions.
two words for the africa and haiti thing: foreign aid. oh and dont forget somalia. yes we go help them out by supplying them food and what happens our troops get slaughtered and their dead bodies dragged down the street while somalies spit and throw **** on their bodies. but i forgot we WERENT helping with crisises around the world we were just being the big USA bullies invading oil rich countries.
i was stating that in a general fashion (although i did relate it to japan). i never said we should use it as a strategy in taking military actions. i simply was stating a simple but obvious truth. you cannot for certain prove something will happen if different actions were taken, because that future never happened. it's all based on speculations.
I understand your point but being a Fire Capt. / Paramedic who felt that terrible day all over and as an ex military soldier who has seen combat and have had to shoot someone. It's not the big yapityy yap yap joke that alot of people make it out to be. It has been 10 yrs now and I still have nightmares. I remember coming home from over seas and getting spit on in my uniform in the airport by snot noosed people who thought i was wrong and thought it was there right to spit on me. Funny thing is , it is people like me who they spit on who fought to give them that right to express thier feelings. You may not have inteneded to insult anyone with that comment........but hey................your not in the position I am in when saving lives. That is what I choose to do by choice. I don't expect praise nor do I want it. I have been doing my present job for over 6 yrs now and I maybe have had someone say thank you 3 timesand that is just fine with me. The point is, it was a wrong way to word your opinion. (not that it was wrong in theory) just poorly worded. I have lost 5 friends from fighting in Iraq and Afgan the past while and unfortunatly the way that was worded just insulted what they died for, what I was wounded for, what my medals downstairs are for, and what I do everyday when someone calls for my help. Sorry to sound like a party pooper but that is the way it made me feel. AND just another little fact.....quote un quote " you americans"...........I happen to be Canadian and look how much you insulted me. I can't imagine what some other American Citizens may be feeling.
P.S. your points afterwards though maybe noble just sound like a poor excuse for being IGNORANT.
so he compared the biggest act of terrorism ever, an attack which the only way we "provoked" an attack was with our western ideas of capitalism and trying to instill some sort of stability in the middle east to the dropping of nuclear weapons on an enemy we were in a state of declared war with. on a side note, the terrorist attacks on sept. 11th initiated the war on terror which is STILL being fought today. not only that but the presidential cabinet is being investigated by a 9/11 committee as we speak, but we are supposed to just DROP IT because it happened 3 years ago?
Hey Kwajman, that is what the media wants you to believe. The only thing that are put on TV are thing that further a reporters career, or jujst make ratings. If you think Iraq wasn't hidding anything, give me a PM and I will personally tell you some of what I saw and I have pics to back it up.
Firemedic I think you have to qualify amiller's statements with the post he was replying to namely: In light of this as he pointed out he was in no way belittling September 11th but he was just highlighting that we can be quite selective in what we resign to the 'past'. I also think he expressed that opinion with quite alot of tact he: I mean did you read clause 2? There are plenty of horrendous acts that take place all over the world and while Sep 11th was undoubtably terrible not being able to ever mention it without it causing offence seems iofftopicture to me.
Oh and Hapkido regardless of whether you are 'at war' or not it doesn't justify wiping out entire cities of civilians and although you may consider them all potential kamikaze pilots that is just WRONG- using the same logic people could classify the entire population of America as responsible for their militarys actions, see the problem here?!? America's army bombed my country and all the American people could be brainwashed into dieing for their country so therefore Im justified in wiping out American civilians- thats as wrong for American people as it was for the Japanese.'We' are not the shining knights in armour you think 'we' are, read on the subject.Go and read/watch more than this documentary...How much of the American budget goes towards foreign aid and how much goes towards war?
This is the last I will say on any of this BUT, CKava,
1 - I didn't say anyone could NEVER talk about it
2 - I said it was right in theory, just worded wrong
3 - and if you feel like it is being imature, then maybe you could pick up a rifle or a medic bag and stretcher, get of your *** and put yourself in the position of the ones who get insulted by comment like that. Maybe then after loosing hundreds of your fellows brothers and gals you might see how it would afend.
4 - yes, I am well aware of the tragities that happen around the world. I HAVE BEEN THERE (gulf,yugoslavia, bosnia, Rwanda) I know what it is like first hand......NOT WHAT I SEE ON TV that makes some people so called "EXPERTS"
you talk about imature.........maybe once you actually experience life you can talk to me about being imature.
Now, I apologize to you Bigalexe but there are some things that have to be said.
On your orriginal thread, I do believe that fighting is a big part of growing up. To bad my mother didn't. She always told me to walk away and I got the snot beat outa me every day of school pretty much. I don't think that there was a time were I wasn't sore or had a black eye. (i was only 110 lbs when I graduated!!) everybody new i wanted to be in the army so I was called the school army f*g and paid for it from the jocks. BUT after being in the military and finding myself this is one thing I am teaching my daughter. Since joining TKD I have seen her confidence start to grow and even though I have taught her that if someone hits you you ask them to stop, if they don't, you protect yourself. The biggest thing I think she has learned is that TKD is for self groth and spirit, not for fighting.I think we have both found a real passion for the teachings of TKD. She knows that she can hurt someone but she also knows that if she has to she will never be in a position to find out. Whether that be knowing when to walk away or knowing when to defend ones self. I am now 32 and I can say I have not been in a fight for 12 yrs. just somthing I think I would rather spend the energy on taking my girl fishing then wasting it on people who are to ignorant to see the difference. But that doesn't mean I won't protect myself or my family if the situation dictates that there is no other way!!
If I might I would like to quote somthing I read on an old thread. I can't remember who posted it but I printed a copy out and it hangs downstairs next to our heavy bag:
Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win.
I'll send you a reply in PM regarding my experiences FireMedic. And incidentally I wasnt really addressing the iofftopicture comment to you but still I dont see anything offensive in the post, the only thing that could possibly be offensive is qualified with an entire paragraph pointing out that it is not meant to be offensive and was simply being used to highlight a point. His point wasnt that the event and those that sacrificed their lives in it should be forgotten about I think it was actually the opposite! If we dont forget about Sep 11th why should we forget about Hiroshima...
Anyway like I said PM on its way. And sorry once again Battleaxe, Ive sent a post to a mod asking them to split this thread so your thread shouldnt be sidetracked for much longer...
Again as an American, we have no business being in Iraq. Its a matter of big oil and money for Bush and his cronies. The older I get, the more I realize that the government lies to us. I WORK for the government and I know how they limit access of information to the people. The military is not run by the military, its run by civilians.
Two more thoughts,
1. feel free to e-mail me firemedic, the photos you speak of I can verify them, particularly if they were government photos.
2. Nothing we did to the Japanese was worse than what the Japanese did to Nanking.
Two: