The Strike

[janeilhomeblack]

When was the last time you faced losing your entire career, or even further legal action, based on just doing your job as well as you can?



Well fine. Just make teaching the same as any other job. Then see if people are willing to do it whilst also being expected to sort out and baby-sit other people's unruly children while doing it.
I'd be interested in the results.



Do you remember your teachers at all? Maybe one that instilled a particular love of a subject (or the reverse even)?
I can easily remember 5-8 that had massive ramifications on my life.
Teachers DIRECTLY effect the children they teach (for better or worse).
Just the other week my wife was an important part in the reporting of a serious crime.
Anyone that directly interacts with children has a special place in society IMHO. It's different to knowing how servers work.



With good reason.

 

[billmdano]

The test that has to be passed to justify early retirement on a public sector pension has to be: are people physically capable of doing the job at 68? In the case of teachers, you're going to struggle to convince me that the answer is no. Firefighters, Police Officers, Nurses even, but teachers? Sorry, not buying it. Teachers shouldn't be breaking up fights, and if the ability to break up a brawl is a key requirement of the teaching profession, then 75%+ of the profession is already inadequate.

A good teacher relates to his/her students regardless of age. The best teachers I had at school were deep into their 50s and they managed without difficulty. And frankly, I'm not going to bat over the pensions of bad teachers.

 

[MillyH]

You just described every licensed occupation.

Doctors - check
Nurses - check
Lawyers - check
Senior Engineers - check
Police Officers - check

I could go on, but you get the point.

If binmen are going to be required to work until they're 68, so should teachers.

 

[LJRobbie]

I am a civil servant and I supported the strike. When you are employed by a company you enter into an agreement with them. The pension is part of that agreement, it is a benefit just like holidays, sick pay etc, so it is wrong to try and change the rules a couple of years down the line.
It isn't just this government who tried to change the rules, the last Government tried as well, and their offer was far less than what the current government are offering.
I am a political atheist. Gordon Brown destroyed the private pension industry in the UK by taxing it at source and it was he who forumlated the idea of the bank bailouts , the current Government are carrying on the same policies.
What you should realise is that the English pound is backed by nothing, it is a fiat currencey...the only thing that it is backed by is the taxes of the working class in the UK, and so we are the ones attacked by austerity measures and job cuts, we are the ones paying for the bank bailouts and for the high bonuses that the bankers get.that is wrong!!

 

[JackJre]

You entered into an agreement that was based on assumptions that have been shown to be false. It happens. As a result, the cost of that agreement became unsustainable. The reforms in 2007 were meant to correct that, but the assumptions that those reforms were based on also turned out to be false.

If there's no money in the public pension pot, then the only people who can pay for those pensions are the members of the scheme or the taxpayers of the UK. Or would you rather the scheme just went bust and you get nothing?

Obviously, the members of the scheme want the taxpayers to bail out their pension fund, but the taxpayers are not particularly enamoured with that option, particularly at a time when belts are being tightened.

Do you have any idea how the situation can be resolved to everyone's satisfaction?

EDIT: Also, you say you supported the strike...does that mean you didn't strike yourself?

 

[Derail]

Cool. I agree and would put those jobs outside of the normal considerations of retirement age, pensions etc. Just like teachers. They aren't doing "normal" jobs.



Agreed. What about average run of the mill, ordinary teachers? ie The vast majority? Age not a factor at all?
Personally I think the pace technology is evolving, age and relevent experience becomes increasingly important to monitor and take into account.



The mental requirements for being a binman are vastly different to the mental requirements for being a teacher.
Again...make them the same if you like. Same holidays, same pay, same pension. Then see if people think they are equal jobs to do day to day.

 

[BringIt]

Fortunately it's never come about, but potentially on a daily basis. As I'm responsible for security cleared information - if it leaks, I'm out, and facing prosecution. I would never be able to work in the industry I specialise in again.

I could even potentially face a custodial sentence, if the breach is serious enough.

So yes, regularly. Fortunately I am very good at my job.



You mean like childcare professionals, who look after other people's children on a daily basis for little pay and generally have the children for more than eight hours a day? They also have to do much of the same paperwork as teachers, submit their homes to regular inspections, and deal with all the finance side themselves (they're often self-employed so don't have the backup that teachers have to handle all the admin).



Well, the childcarers I know enjoy their jobs, and are quite happy, despite often working 10-12 hour days, plus weekends. Maybe if teaching is so tough for some people, they shouldn't be going into it in the first place.



I can remember several who massively affected my life, yes. Not in a good way in most cases - and it's worth noting that at school I was one of the 'good' kids.



My last boss had a much greater effect on me than any teacher has ever had, and definitely a more positive one.



And? I've been in similar cases before.



It's great that you accept it's your opinion. And that you give such a special place to children and those who teach them. Again though, what about other childcare professionals, nurses, social workers? How about the non-teachers in schools even?



What's the reason?



Not just licensed professions - any profession with a level of responsibility can be ruined by a lapse.



Hear hear.

 

[lyndam]

Lawyers are doing a normal job, so are Engineers. Police Officers can retire earlier because they physically aren't up to the task anymore and you might argue the same for nurses, but teachers have no such physical requirements. You can become a teacher if you're wheelchair bound or otherwise physically disabled, so the age argument fails to hold up.


I consider it part of a teacher's job to keep up with advancements in educational technology, so no sympathy there. And ordinary teachers should be able to teach until the age of 68.


So now we're doing mental requirements, a few posts ago it was physical.

 

[thebeachxx3]

What exactly is a normal job?



In my opinion and experience, the 'average' and ordinary teachers would be better off not teaching. The bad ones should be kept out of schools entirely.



Less and less so as time goes on actually.



So a teacher, who doesn't rely on such technology and interact with it daily, is worthy of early retirement on the basis that they can't keep up, whereas someone who has to keep on the absolute edge of things, up to date with many, many more technologies/sciences/methods/practices than a teacher is not? Why is age and senility only an issue for teachers? Are other people not allowed to slow down as they get older? Those 'ordinary' people in their 'ordinary' jobs?



So now it's about mental requirements rather than how tough the job is, or the fact that it involves children? There are many jobs more mentally challenging than teaching as well - are these worthy of the same provisions?



Well the physical requirements of being a binman are vastly different to the physical requirements for being a teacher, so in fact they'll be more likely to physically break down as they get older. Doesn't that mean they should have early retirement?

 

[oliviaolivia]

But here's the rub. Even teachers who are very good at their job face this. It's not a reflection on how good you are at your job in many cases just merely a reflection of how far the little scrotes will take a grievance.



The really don't.



Of sorry then. I didn't realise we were judging the impact of an entire profession that deals with all the nation's children from 5-16+ on your personal experience alone. Silly me. I was trying to generalise to make a point.



Goodness me. Try for a second to stop thinking about your individual life (I'm sure you can). Just think about the interaction teachers have everyday with kids. If you think you have the same interaction with the same number of kids I'll be surprised.



Again...it doesn't have to be a lapse. A vindictive kid is all it takes. And there are plenty of those.

 

[JustHangin]

I didn't really specify physical or mental overly (apart from splitting up fights which is both). It's not specifically any one thing to be honest. It's more an amalgamation of teaching day to day, keeping up with developments, discipline, etc etc All the angles.

What I'm saying is that you have to ask how many hurdles and hardships you are going to put in people's way when doing a job. Then ask how important it is that you keep people interested in doing that job and how vital it is.

 

[Web]

It's a vital job, probably one of the most vital, which is why I think teachers should be paid better. But pensions and retirement ages are a separate issue entirely.

 

[someonecool]

Ah well there you go. We agree on that at least.
But you give in one area but take in another. Either way the overall package needs to be sufficiently attractive to overcome the obvious stresses of essentially being in loco parentis to a population of increasingly unruly kids (and all the rest).
There may come a point where being a teacher isn't a good enough option compared to other professions.

 

[optimistic_singh]

And I could face the same if a co-worker takes a dislike to me, or if one of those little scrotes decides to take an interest in one of those servers and thinks of something I haven't.



Ah, you're an expert on it are you? That's good to know.

You're aware that they're subject to OFSTED regulations, right? You're also aware that unlike teachers in a school they have to do all of the administrative tasks themselves? Just checking, since you clearly know their profession so well.



Hmm. Nope, you were generalising to make a point, yes, but your generalisation isn't necessarily accurate. There are a lot of bad, or just inadequate, teachers out there as well as the good ones. I've worked with enough of them (and taught enough classes) to know the difference - and to know how hard teaching a class can be.



Amazingly other people than teachers have to deal with reporting crimes. This may come as a shock to you. Other jobs are hard too, and teachers are not godlike entities of perfection and grace - though many of them seem to think that way.

I have taught, in schools, and dealt with the paperwork, and the discipline issues, and all of the other unpleasantness. I have had my life ruined by a false accusation which cost me my job and had me escorted from a school site, before being dismissed. It was after that I decided to never return to education, so yes, I know how tough it can be. Don't assume.



I'm aware of this. In the same way a vindictive boss, coworker or customer can do exactly the same. There are some very unpleasant people out there - not just kids.



This is not unique to teaching.



Let's see what teachers get shall we?

- Starting salaries higher than equivalent graduate starting salaries.
- Pay rises just for meeting targets - increasing their income by 50% over five years from being an NQT.
- TLR payments for additional responsibilities
- Home ownership schemes
- Teacher's pension (even reduced it's very, very good)
- 35+ days holiday a year
- Pay scales which increase automatically with length of service

Yep. Seems like a very tough, under-rewarded job compared to everything else out there.

Shall we just see what everyone else gets?

- Sometimes a pension scheme
- Sometimes health/life insurance
- 25-odd days holiday - which takes into account bank holidays, meaning 17 days to be taken as actual holiday (assuming you're allowed to work over Christmas, otherwise it's 14)
- Sometimes overtime (other times you're just expected to work the extra hours for free)

Yes, how dare we treat those poor teachers so badly.

 

[xllilbbylx]

Well there you go. Someone that left teaching when they should be encouraged to stay as teacher. Assuming that is you were one of the good ones.



So it's not accurate to generalise that teachers have more interaction with the nation's children than non-teachers!?! Really?
The fact that other people (like you) have to report crimes doesn't change what is, I think, a pretty irrefutable fact.
I was using the example of reporting a crime as part of the day to day life of a teacher to show how it is different to sitting at a desk inputting data or chucking bins in a lorry. Not unique but different enough to warrant carefuk consideration.



Never said it was but as this thread is mainly about teachers going on strike that's what we are talking about.



Again...I don't think I said teachers get treated badly either.

My point is this I think. An increase in retirement age has ramifications to the quality of the education received (for the reasons I mentioned). You may be fine with that. I am not. A bin-man that is getting past it may put 2 less bins in the lorry per day compared to a younger colleague. A teacher that is past it may mean yours or my child gets a D at GCSE compared to a C.
Further to that point is this..teaching is stressful and I think the general public look at the holidays and the hours and think teachers get an easy life so therefore can lose some pension and work longer. All I'm saying is that such changes can have major effects if the overall package of being a teacher becomes unattractive to the point where it isn't worth the hassle to do. This becomes even more problematic if we take LBR's advice and get the weaker teachers to move out of teaching leaving the better ones to pick up the pieces.

 

[ampdup79]

Of course. My daughter goes to a child minder and 2 different nurseries. My wife is also on the committee at one nursery.
And in terms of paper work they have less to do. Sure they have offsted inspections and syllabuses (syllabi?) to adhere to. But there ain't no marking to do. No real schemes of work to get ready. No exams to get prepare kids for. No coursework to mark. No real expternal invigilation.
Often the people at nurseries that do the admin also aren't the ones doing day to day childcare.

 

[Malignant_Tribes]

In my case it was a teacher who made the accusation.



That wasn't what you were claiming with your generalisation. You were saying that teachers have a huge impact on our kids, and then ignored my own experience where it was evident that it wasn't true. You weren't referring to interaction at the time.



No more so than many other jobs. That point still stands. Do those other jobs deserve the same special treatment you believe teachers do?



Hmm.

You are aware that not just teachers went on strike, right? This is why I take such issue with the whole thing - many more people than teachers are undergoing hardship (to a higher degree than teachers - check what a school network manager's salary averages at, it's less than many starting teachers in most places and they have the same challenges) but the teachers seem to be special, precious little flowers deserving of more care and attention than anyone else.

This is why I get annoyed about it, and try to point out that actually in comparison to their non-teaching colleagues, and coworkers in other services, they have it pretty good.



A teacher that has a wealth of experience and practice may end up getting your child a lower grade? Might they not, if they're a good teacher, instead make use of that wealth of knowledge and experience of the profession and their subject(s) to get them a higher grade?

Not everyone loses their faculties over the three extra years between 65 and 68.



Lots of jobs are stressful. No other jobs I'm aware of get as much time off.



Wait, so one second you're complaining that older teachers will get your kids lower grades, and that's why you're against the retirement age increasing, then in the next second you're saying we need to keep the weaker teachers who are getting your kids lower grades? I'm not sure I can keep up with this...

 

[Fordman]

Hmm, I should perhaps have said childminders rather than child carers. They do their own admin. They have schemes of work and progress reports to do. They need to report back to parents about what the child has been doing, how they are progressing, any difficulties or issues and so on.

They also have none of the protection or assistance that teachers get - yet I don't hear any yelling either from them, or on their behalf.

 

[loveschatter]

I swear to God I'm changing your user name to curmudgeon!

 

[chrisbowe82]

OK so I'll share my personal experience of this shall I? That seems to work to counter any point.
The report back about what the child is doing is a few lines that say "Bobby played in the sand pit and sang some songs".
There's an additional book they keep for each child where they put little notes about their development. "Bobby picked something up". "Bobby said his own name".
It's quite clearly not to anything like the same degree as the sort of ongoing paperwork and admin that is invloved with teaching a child that is 5+.
"difficulties or issues"? Bobby cried when another child took his toy.
The child minder probably does similar for the kids she looks after long term but my daughter she only picks up from nursery and gives a biscut and some toys to.
The only real admin she has is giving us a bill every month. And her husband does that!