Using propaganda.

[Kissmyax]

I've been surfing the internet lately for videos of everything from insurgents getting taken out from miles away by a hellfire missile to terrorists executing hostages. The most gripping of all of these images to me was watching living, breathing men get their heads cut off with a knife by terrorists. Watching a man squeal like a pig and squirm around as he is decapitated slowly . . . . it's just a very powerful image that stirs a few emotions.

With that specific atrocity in mind I can't help but think of how the military has gotten blasted for killing a wounded insurgent or done something that seemed a little inhumane. I also think about how everyone is so opposed to the war in Iraq as it just seems to be for personal benefit for a few rather then anything else. But in all honesty, do you think people would feel the same way if the use of such images as executions were publicly viewed? To use that as propaganda to show what some of these people are capable of doing?

Do you think you would feel the same way if you watched another man get killed in such a grim fashion? Would you be so upset if you watched footage of a Marine blow away a wounded man who is a terrorist trying to surrender when he very well may have been one of the men executing an undeserving man maybe a week before?

I'm just curious to know as I know a few MAP members have and do blast everything about the war and anything that has happened. But I am just curious to know if they've watched images of a man being beheaded, or a group of men shot to death for no real reason worth killing for.

 

[JudiL]

I think the difference is you (not personally, yet) are there to help stop atrocities, terrorists, on the other hand...........well the clue is in the name.

This isn't a war of two sides, it's another Vietnam or Ireland. Unwinable.

.........and yes I've seen some of those videos, some people seem to like showing them to everyone on their phones, why is this?

 

[Mateo]

Videos like that make me sick. To say they don't phase me would be a lie. I have a real problem watching helpless people suffer. I'll just say they don't affect me. Seeing a video of a guy getting blown up isn't going to change my views, neither is a video of a guy getting beheaded with a pocket knife. STuff like that isn't going to change the way I feel about the war.

Just remember that there are all types of propaganda and it doesn't end with this war footage. it's all around us. Society and civilization is all about controlling the way wit think, act and feel and it's difficult to see where and how they try to control us when we've been in it for so long.

 

[celeste_1965]

We won Northern Ireland, the ballot box beat the bomb there, it's a democracy, not perfect but what is. It's on the right track.

 

[SilverMoon]

As it should if you still consider yourself human.



Ah... here's where you start going all vague on us.
So what would you suggest? Would you suggest that we also treat our enemies in the same fashion. Should we now condone decapitating people simply because that's a tactic used by our enemies? What about torture. When you start going down the two wrongs make a right road... you're on a very slippery slope.

What sort of scale are you using to arrive at 'a little inhumane'? And how are you objectively applying that across the board? Or are you?



When you start looking into the insane profits made by private contractors like Haliburton it can be rather hard NOT to arrive at this conclusion.




It already has been. Who are you kidding? It's been on YouTube and a gazillion other sites for ages. It's been announced on the news. Look at the number of hits that many of those videos have seen and then tell me if you think you're one of the select few that has seen the video. Come on... there are dozens out there. You know it... I know... the person who can't find Iraq or Washington DC on the map knows it.



Again... Sparkle... these vids have been available for a very long time. Many, many millions of people have seen them. I've seen them... far more times than is probably healthy. But... and there's always a but... it doesn't throw me into knee jerk reaction mode and just start saying 'Go Bush! We're there for all the right reasons' - one really has to take a look a whole lot of other factors besides some shocking videos of beheadings to arrive at a decision whether or not we're there for the right reasons. Or... perhaps not.




Lame. Loaded question. Nothing like phrasing a question to get an answer that supports your overall gist. Sorry dude... but that is really silly. Even your question is vaguely structured. So do you want to have the right to suofftopicrily execute anyone who may have been someone fighting against your fellow soldiers? If that's the case why not just carpet bomb Iraq? Seriously... it's so full of terrorists and so full of all those decapitating scumbags... why waste one American life on them? Why not just carpet bomb their strong areas and then hire Haliburton at some insane price to go in and clean up? Seriously.



I find it ironic that your thread is titled 'propaganda' and you've just joined the Marines(?). I'd say their indoctrination is working very well so far.

I think if you have a problem with specific members at MAP and their opinions then why are you pussyfooting around the bush and not just naming names. I'm sure whoever they are can give you a very clear and concise response.

As for myself... I think the war is shambolic. It was war predicated on nonsense... by a president who's done more harm than good while in office... fighting an enemy that his cronies on the hill help put into power. When that relationship went sour it was time for a war. Surprise, surprise. The body bags keep coming home because the soldiers are being sent off to fight a war that can't be won... it's ridiculous, it's sad... but hey... don't dig into that too deeply... it's totally at odds with joining the Marines. You're not there to question anything... you're there to do as your told.

 

[SunnySideUp]

I had to cancel a few sessions at the Royal Marine Coofftopicndo Barracks in Glasgow where I had my dojo because there were coffins in the gym!!!

Asking the guys themselves.. they are fighting for their life and the guy next to them NOT for Blair who has moved on and is on a money making circuit now.

As Slip says the war is sad..I would add tragic.Fought by brave youngster for greedy old......

regards koyo

regards

 

[nazmiles2002]

I meant in a military sense. An occupying force is always at a massive disadvantage, things turn nasty on both sides.

 

[urfantasymate]

Propaganda cuts two ways. The current US administration has the art mastered as demonstrated by the run up to the war, and the fact that the media (In the land where freedom of the press is guaranteed in the constitution) is not allowed to publish or broadcast images of the flag draped coffins of the US war dead.

What if we saw the suffering and civilian casualties caused by US bombs and missiles?

Would we then better understand the Iraqi rage at having their country occupied by an invading army?

Everyone who offers resistance is an insurgent or a terrorist in the US lexicon, but if the US were being occupied, everyone who resisted would be a hero. This is nothing if not propaganda.

Beheadings are brutally inhumane, but so are bombs dropped from planes or bullets fired from a gun.

Have you been sufficiently roused by what you've seen to enlist and serve? Or is your moral righteousness limited to postings on the internet? Is this just your way of supporting the US in unilateral/preemptive/genocide... oops, I mean the military takeover of a country that just happens to sit atop one of the world's largest oil fields? Oops, I mean in its efforts to bring democracy at gunpoint to a...
oops, I mean....

Well, you know what I mean.

 

[HappyHiram]

Pretty quick on the whole though, not that I'm offering to find out.
How long does it take to spark someone?

 

[elsayed]

Hey Slip,

In all honesty I have to say that I have not been one of the people who have actually seen those sorts of videos in the last few years. Yes I've heard about them on the news, yes I've read about them in the papers, yes I've been aware that they are there. Have I seen them? No. And I'm assuming that the majority of people are like me, heard about it, read about it, haven't witnessed it. For me the emotional reaction was drastically different from hearing about it to actually seeing it. I didn't have a knee jerking "Go Bush" reaction though. It was more of a "damn, I have a new outlook on life and killing" type of reaction. I may just be naive though in thinking that there is a majority who haven't actually witnessed for themselves actual footage of these things.

As for the hits on videos. I'm pretty sure a "hit" is counted by how many times the video is watched isn't it? So if one person (like myself) watches the same video 10 - 15 times before they quit and then does the same the next day then maybe just a small number such as a million turns into a HUGE number doesn't it? But again I don't know anything about that, maybe millions^? have seen it. I just know I wasn't one of them who actually saw it.

As far as my thread was concerned, I meant to imply that if people were constantly reminded of these things day after day (you turn the TV on and there it was on CNN, actual footage, not just a story that it happened) that they wouldn't be so quick to say things about a soldier who snapped or that they didn't want us over there regardless of the circumstances. I'm not saying it would change anything about the war, just that it may make people a little more understanding towards the brutality of our own and what they have to deal with? I don't mean to have that sound like I want them or myself to have a ticket for doing whatever they please, but just that the standard can't always be met. It seems that people always want perfection from things but humans aren't able to give it that way.

As far as having a problem with certain people on MAP. When I come on MAP and read threads on something big like war or law I honestly don't see names too often. What I do see is either a well thought out response, an extremist viewpoint, a very ignorant viewpoint, and generally just a perfectly concentrated representation of the actual public. And being the pessimist that I am I always assume that the extremist and ignorant prevail more in society then the well though out responses. I could be wrong in that though.

Hell man, I haven't been near a computer for three months prior to the last couple of days (and do you think I've wasted my precious leave all on MAP to read all of more then . . . two threads I think? Not blasting MAP or anything but man, there's a lot to fit into 10 days) and prior to that I didn't post too much on MAP anymore either. I really don't have any grudges against anyone nor do I remember any of the people that strike the impressions I explained above.

I didn't intend to bleed for the war in this post (although I definitely see how it sounds like that). I just intended to see if people thought that more support for this war could be gained through the use of that sort of propaganda. Showing actual footage of this happening and not just a news story or reading about it in a paper. And to further that a bit more, if it would gain support why don't you think they've done it yet? Also that if the people who are so against the war without really knowing anything more then a few facts have actually seen what happens and if it changed their view or made them think twice about things.

Judging by your post Slip I'm just going to go with the realization that my original post just wasn't really good for what I wanted to ask. I'm a little peeved that you assumed because I just joined the Marines that I posted this. During training there wasn't too much war propaganda at all. There was no "Go Bush" or "We're over there for the right cause" that I was aware of. There was a lot of "this is what the enemy is trying to do to kill you," "this is what you need to do to stay alive," and "always watch your brother's back." To imply that I was brainwashed a bit by the military for the current propaganda of why we are over there (assuming that's what you were saying) is a little dumb in my opinion. It wasn't like that at all in my experience.

 

[TheDylan]

Sparkle... I'll come back and respond in just a bit. My first post may have come off in a bad way.. a bit terse. Let me free up a bit and I'll explain my thoughts in depth.

 

[Bazzam]

I actually agree to a certain extent with Sparkle. And I can say with 99% certainty that most of my relatives over the age of 30 will not have seen any beheading videos and I myself only saw them for the first time last year. Such videos really do leave a visceral reaction that things like descriptions or still-photos just really do not capture. The reaction I felt after viewing such images me didn't immediately cause me to run out and support Bush's agenda but it certainly did make me think that someone should be opposing such brutal and callous murderers and the ideologies that make beheadings a reality.

I think people are really jumping on Sparkle too quick here... he's presenting legitimate questions and he doesn't, to me at least, seem to be assuming his opinion is right. I also think that it's a fair comment that MAP's vocal members who post on Iraq are predominately anti-Iraq war.

 

[psycomathesaurus]

Put me down as anti unjust wars.

regards koyo

 

[lilmiss]

I think you're asking several different questions here. Obviously insurgents are capable of terrible things. That shouldn't excuse the actions of a minority of military personnel, no. Might it do so, if used as propaganda? Of course. But it still shouldn't.


1. Footage will only show an injured man getting killed, not the background.
2. Are the soldiers on the spot in a position to discern every innocent caught up from every terrorist?
3. Is it in any case right to kill an injured man who is trying to surrender?



I've seen them, talked with people who've served, support the people if not the leaders/cause.

The problem is that if you're going to be the good guys, you have to act like the good guys. Shooting dead wounded people who you think may be bad guys doesn't come close to that. My 4 year old understands that and sometimes as adults we ought to strip away the complexity our increased understanding gives and just get back to the basics.

We should be trying to be the good guys; if we're not, why are we there?

Mitch

 

[bluesky1]

Sparkle quote: "The most gripping of all of these images to me was watching living, breathing men get their heads cut off with a knife by terrorists. Watching a man squeal like a pig and squirm around as he is decapitated slowly . . . . it's just a very powerful image that stirs a few emotions."


Later in the thread: "In all honesty I have to say that I have not been one of the people who have actually seen those sorts of videos in the last few years. Yes I've heard about them on the news, yes I've read about them in the papers, yes I've been aware that they are there. Have I seen them? No."


Propaganda (as defined by my Merriam-Webster dictionary): The spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause or a person.

So, in an effort to demonize "insurgents and terrorists", you start a thread about propaganda with a lie pointedly aimed at eliciting an emotional response.

The bad news sir, is that immorality and evil generally start small, and have their roots in just such acts.

 

[teallander]

old palden if you read his posts it's quite clear that he is saying he only saw the videos recently. It's really not difficult to see that point and I think this highlights how it is certainly worth re-reading posts before accusing someone of lieing for underhand purposes.

To highlight how you are jumping to the wrong conclusions...

First Sparkle says he has just seen these images recently and subsequently he poses some questions about the reaction seeing such videos would case to the public at large:


Next slip comments that such videos are old news and everyone has already seen them:


After this Sparkle clarifies that he really hadn't seen the videos before and he doesn't agree with slip that most people will have seen them. A point with which I would agree (just for an example none of the 5 twenty somethings in my flat have except for myself):


In light of the above I would suggest you apologise to Sparkle for not reading the thread properly or at very least just read threads more carefully before making accusations and implying that such lies are at the heart of the worlds problems. I would contend that jumping to conclusions without taking the time to really look at issues is certainly just as problematic.

 

[SianM]

I quoted him precisely... his words.

"Have I seen them? No."

If he meant, "Had I seen them? No."

That's what he should have said.

Lecture him on proper use of tense, not me for responding to what he said and not what he meant.

 

[SusanW]

So you're doing him for a typo?
It was obvious to me what he meant.

 

[amandagranados20]

I responded to what he wrote, precisely as he wrote it.

I quote him verbatim.

Have I seen them? No.

This means, "I have not seen them."

It was obvious to me what he wrote. If he meant something different than what he wrote, he's free to clarify it.

 

[bigguy]

It's quite clear what he meant when viewed in the context of the overall thread(which is something CKva pointed out). As a matter of fact, it was made quite clear what he meant further on in the very paragraph you quoted him from:

"In all honesty I have to say that I have not been one of the people who have actually seen those sorts of videos in the last few years. Yes I've heard about them on the news, yes I've read about them in the papers, yes I've been aware that they are there. Have I seen them? No. And I'm assuming that the majority of people are like me, heard about it, read about it, haven't witnessed it. For me the emotional reaction was drastically different from hearing about it to actually seeing it."

So why is it everyone else can see what's being related (edit: *meant*