Violent vs Peaceful protest

Yeah its not my sort of thing but other than taking pot shots at students and making very sweeping stereotypical comments are you really trying to contribute anything here?
 
To say that big business has a large say in policies, yes, it is a conspiracy theory and one without much evidence - simply because if it were the case businesses would be much, much mroe free to do bad things than they are. They have some say, but not as much as you seem to think.



Who cares about excuses? The point is that stopping such things is often more harmful than allowing them and simply trying to mitigate the damage.



So the big financial institutions with lots of money fund a lot of political campaigns to a degree, and when they're about to crash and bring down the (inter)national economy the government props them up to mitigate damage. This is then, somehow, because they wanted to funnel tax money into the banks? My god! The whole thing must be some engineered financial crisis in order to move assets into the financial sector!

Just to clarify for the hard-of-hearing, that last bit was sarcastic.



You really need to work on your research skills. When did anyone say it was a plot? People get assassinated. Sometimes people get murdered by lone lunatics (particularly high profile people, lunatics rarely try to bump off Fred down the pub because he'd be harder to build a fixation around).



Stats please. And some sort of evidence which doesn't come from a newspaper or wikipedia.



...no it's not.

Yes, there is some evidence against that, but the claim that the war was for oil is somewhat flawed. There's a lot more oil available in other places, more easily accessible. On top of that there's the huge public relations damage which was done by the war, which will have affected prices and the willingness to negotiate of other oil-rich countries in the area.

Now I don't agree with the stated reasons for the war, but I do agree with it happening because it has deposed an evil dictator. We have fought wars in the past for no better reason.



When did the British or American governments last gas a village? How many of the student protestors were shot? How many were not arrested and formally charged, but quietly disappeared before being tortured to death?



Just to check, what's wrong with Westernised exactly?



We are the people with the capability to do so. Moral relativism which you seem to be espousing is a curse and an excuse for tolerating the most horrendous and evil behaviour. You can either say that your morals are correct, and act accordingly, or you can crawl away into a little hole and pretend that there are excuses and reasons for ritual mutilation, torture, genocide, sanctioned rape, honour killings and so forth.

Personally I stick to the first option - there are some things which are wrong and should never be tolerated, and certainly never sanctioned.



Uh...how're we meant to put an end to the rule of the warlords if we don't interfere?



Hilarious - that's worked so well in the past after all.



You are aware that some of the major duties of the occupying forces are to build and repair infrastructure, right?



Good for you. Personally I'm not for national service at all, no matter the reason, because I'd rather not get shot. I'm happy to admit that and don't need any other excuse for my cowardice.



I wonder how many crimes were not attended by police officers, how long people are going to have to wait to give statements, how many road accidents went unreported, because the police were busy chasing a bunch of drunken louts?



Yawn. Conspiracy nuts are just dull these days. What happened to the old giant shapeshifting lizard alien blood-drinking overlord nuts? They were fun.



An element of racism being encouraged in an army made up of different races? I'm not buying it.



Uh...evidence please?

George Bush was a person who seems to have believed that he was doing the right thing. Whether you agree with him or not is besides the point. In the same argument you have accused him of being powerless, controlled by business, a fundamentalist Christian and instigating a war because of a grudge.



So they've deployed, by air drop, napalm and Agent Orange?

No, we're probably not told half of what's going on. I'd agree with you on that if not on much else, but we know more about what's going on than we have in any previous war throughout history - which makes it much, much harder for bad stuff to happen without being noticed.



Uh...I'm a liberal actually. Fairly extreme liberal for that matter.

And the Nazi's, just for your information, were socialists (lefties).



I know, with all of the propoganda on it already aimed one way bringing in some right-wing propoganda would probably cause some sort of anti-matter explosion.



Generally nowadays armies send people to kill - they try not to get their own people killed because its:

a) bad publicity
b) a waste of resources
c) demoralising



Nope, as I said, they send people to kill. Being killed is an unfortunate side-effect which they try to avoid happening as much as possible.



See above. Even if you assume that the people in charge are completely callous, unthinking and inhuman (personally I doubt that very much) then the other reasons would be reason enough for the most ardent of sociopaths to try and minimise losses.



Which facts? Data please. Again, not wikipedia or tabloid junk.

Now can you do me a huge favour. If you look on the left side of your keyboard, about three rows down (possibly four depending on keyboard format) you will see a key with a little upwards-pointing arrow on it. This is the shift key. Making use of it to capitalise words at the beginning of sentences makes things much, much easier to read.
 
OK that post has raised a couple of quotes I missed:


No, if ISAF pull out tomorrow a massive power vacuum will be left leading to a war between the tribes in Afghanistan, the taleban both from there and Pakistan, and Iran. We're seeing it to a degree already now everybody seems to have got bored and decided we're leaving in 2014 the Taleban pushed hard right after that news was announced. Coincidental possibility but I doubt it. Its why I feel the urge to punch people who suggest pulling out the next day.


When I watched Ross Kemp before one of the biggest complaints from soldiers was that they are doing a lot of reconcstruction work and no one reports on it. Only thing we here over here is when someone gets dropped or messes up we never get any news about the good things that are happening. And they are happening.

Bunny:


There's some evidence of white phos being used during the Iraq invasion.
 
Guys, can someone please start a thread on "everything about Iraq/Afghanistan/USA/Bush" and try to keep this thread on topic?
 
You don't actually think a made for TV Kenneth Branagh speech counts as evidence in the real world do you?!

1,000,000 dead following the economic sanctions

800,000 dead following the "liberation"...

Use of Depleted Uranium (war crime)

This is just the most recent example of British/US involvement in Iraq. Are you familiar with how many times British interests have, in the past 80 years, usurped the destiny of the Iraqi people? We drew the bloody borders up for christ sake. We put in a puppet dictator and even crowned him to the tune of "God save the King". In fact Britain has made a habit of installing violently repressive regimes all over the planet throughout the past 400 years.

In short, Britain has been ruining peoples lives in Iraq for a LONG time.

The establishment do not value the lives of soldiers, that is nonsense. I'll go ask my friend Hayden how much they cared about him after his nervous breakdown?

Watch the documentary "Beyond Treason" to see what I mean.

Trailer (I know people have low attention spans now!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8coDsyLzTo

Actual Film
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2205254052040284660#
 
Going from past experience, probably not.

Besides which it wasn't really on topic to begin with - the topic was meant to be a debate between passive protest and violent protest, not students.

I'm still rooting for humorous protest to come in.
 
yeah I was going to shift through your long post and reply but don't hold your breath after that one. convening with idiots on the level that would come out with this statement can not be good for anyone.
 
The Nazis were and still are primarily considered to be a far right party on the traditional left-right scale. But all that really tells you is that the left-right scale fails to tell the whole story.
 
I actually think of it as a circle, you go to far either way and you end up with the same thing. but still most respected historians agree that national socialism as a political ideology is a myth, its a complete contradiction in terms that was used to broaden the appeal of the nazi party to the german public, most dictators will happily subscribe to any movement or ideology if they think it will get them into power, just look at Stalin you don't even have to agree with communism (which I don't) to see he was one in name only because it suited him. to say there was any real substance to there use of the word shows a lack of understanding of the theory of socialism, an ideology that many prominent Nazis including himmler and hitler hated with a passion, its the kind of anti left drivel I expect from an American not someone from Bradford.
 
the history of united fruit company (now chiquita bananas) for one example begs to differ.



ok then but why now ? why this sudden obligation to stop the tyranny of political Islam after years of allowing it, at times even supporting it.



the recent revelations on unreported civilian deaths revealed in the war log leaks speak for themselves.



being an internationally well respected activist from the country its self I am sure she is far more qualified to speak on the situation than you, or I for that matter. the point is these people are not morons they don't lack some mental capacity we have that's not the reason there country's have remained in that state for so long they can look after themselves, even if you believe that noble we are there to help them crap who are we to be so arrogant ?



whatever man maybe I am totally of base but any official explanation for the Kennedy assassination as stunk of inadequacies and everybody knows it. the CIA has a shady history, they didn't get on with Kennedy, there is some evidence they may have been involved.



I think I was asking brendo that question actually. that's who it was intended for anyway.





oh ok so we should just let our government do what it likes then because it may waste police time speaking out against it ? we should just let political party's do the exact opposite of what they said they would do if people voted for them ? we should let them shelve there financial problems onto people who weren't old enough to vote for them in the last election will making world cup bids and letting multi billion dollar company of with tax fraud ? without saying a single word because it might hurt the poor bobby's time, my heart bleeds. some liberal you are.



I was thinking more tiger force , my lai type stuff but I am sure a fair amount of chemicals have been spread about Iraq and Afghanistan and yeah we no a bit a little quicker due to the internet but I doubt that really means less "bad stuff" happens, even in the last few months there's been revelations we didn't already no about.



an extreme liberal, isn't that just a socialist who wont commit (joke )



could you explain this please ?



what do you have against wikipedia ? and why do you keep associating it with me I haven't mentioned it once here ? and why do you think I am getting my opinions from tabloid press's which I have spoke out against even just in this thread, you still haven't explained that.
 
haha yeah I think a discussion about violent vs peaceful protest was a good idea but as soon as I clicked on this all I seen was a bunch of torys arguing with a handful of liberals why the student fees are right/wrong so I wasn't really bothered about staying on topic from the beginning, don't really no how we ended up on iraq/the Kennedy assassination though.
 
The obligation's always been their - the failure to do something about it previously is the real scandal, not the fact that something's been done now.



Past history of the area would tend to indicate that they are not capable of building up their country - not due to some mental deficiency, but due to the propensity towards dictators and tyrants. That may be different now that they do not have such repressive figures in charge, but I doubt it. A strong base is needed in order to construct a functional nation.



Yawn yawn. Conspiracy nut theories are always funny.

Do you not see that you're granting the CIA too much competence and incompetence in the same chain of argument? You're telling me that they're capable of setting up a massive conspiracy, of which not a single person knowledgeable about the conspiracy has breathed a word, with a fall guy who believes that he did it on his own



I just figured I'd answer before you started accusing me of being a nazi too. You do realise that you pretty much Godwinned yourself with that comment?



When did I ever say that? There are just much more effective ways to protest than the ones that certain destructive morons are using. Actually using their brains rather than just relying on fists and testosterone they might be able to think of some of these.



But the point is that there have been those revelations, and the reaction has been universal condemnation. Previously there wouldn't have been a chance for people to react and condemn these things - these atrocities would just happen and no one except the victims would be any the wiser. This is an improvement.



Hardly - there's a world of difference between socialism and liberalism. Being a liberal doesn't necessarily mean I subscribe to a particular party's ideals - there's more meanings to the word than that.



Yep, you're spouting left-wing opinions in the same way as right-wingers spout Daily Mail articles. I figure your computer must be full of the stuff.



That's for a completely different thread, but the answer is essentially 'a lot'.



I'm not associating you with it, I'm just asking for evidence of your points that comes from reliable rather than junk sources. As to your opinions from tabloid press, there left-wing propoganda channels as well as right-wing ones you know? I tend to just lump them together, since they're effectively the same.
 
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