Zimmerman Martin Case

It may not be a race in the UK but in the USA when you fill out a legal document Hispanic, as a choice, is definitely a race, of course I've never seen Asian as a choice on a legal document in the USA.

EDIT: Just so we are all on the same page here's what wiki has to say- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_in_the_United_States
 
"The United States, with its comparatively rigid ideas about race and refusal to acknowledge racial mixing, does not have a word in popular use to describe it. (That’s also probably the reason why 18 million Latinos selected the “some other race” category on their Census form."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/12/cnn-white-hispanic_n_3588744.html
 
I agree they are not genetic and that the boundaries are not set in stone, which is why in my original post I used "White (Hispanic)" because that accurately describes Zimmerman.

We're spiralling off topic now and I'm not sure how this particular discussion is going to contribute to the thread as a whole.

Edit: Plus, that HuffPo article says pretty much all that needs to be said on the subject.
 
So, whilst these racial divides are based on bogus taxonomy, culturally they do exist.

This case has highlighted that. The media have not invented those divides. They may have played on it to sensationalize, but that's their job and we should expect that.

And if the system is biased, which all evidence indicates is true, then it IS the case that the system cannot be trusted as a whole.

It doesn't matter if a liar tells you the truth, from past experience you will not trust them.

That's the issue for me. Not particularly this case, which only Zimmerman knows the truth of, but the societal issues it raises.
 
Me too, if nothing else... I learned something Back to your regularly scheduled debate.
 
No one is to blame when abused other that the abuser. We both agree that she has been convicted of domestic abuse in the past? In this case it seems the circumstances have been reversed and she was justifiably in fear. I guess it seems that she could have avoided the situation. Sort of like not sitting in the wrong end of a football stadium and cheering loudly for the opposite side. SHOULD be ok to do this but try it and there are difficulties.

I understood that she went outside and got the revolver from her car so I don't quite what you are saying. She had her car keys or she could not have gotten the gun out of the car that was outside. At least that was what I thought the report I read said.

She is required, once out of danger, not to arm herself and come back. I will go back and find the sources I originally read but as far as I can see there was no self defense when a person leaves, gets armed and then comes back to a place she didn't need to be by herself in the first place.

LFD
 
I can see your point except the circumstances seem almost to be 180. Zimmerman was at his estate watching where he lived, Alexander went to someone else's place and did so in a manner that was a bit circumspect.

Does that make sense?

I don't make good sense of US law but I do see that the logic that is applied is consistent even if I disagree with it.

LFD
 
Seems a really dangerous case. In any case was Zimmerman the antagonist in this event? Reading through the news of the events of what i can find here in Glasgow it seems that Zimmerman had no probable cause to follow Martin. Also it is reported there was lacerations on Zimmermans face and head but Martin had no weapons. Details are sketchy here.

I think Zimmerman was looking to impose himself on Martin in his territory and it got way out of hand.

Perhaps the legal system in US reached the correct decision but the more i read the more i think there should have been a lesser charge of manslughter at the very Least.

Again this still has to be proved beyond any reasonable doubt - the issue.

Baza
 
Thats why I pointed out he wasn't black





Ah yes. How people want to leave off important facts




They have to label anyone non-black as white. This is done to segregate people as into only two categories, black or white, and it is really racist
 
I think this is probably the best explanation right here. Manslaughter charges were also on the table for Zimmerman but due to the facts of the case Zimmerman was found not guilty. There's no winner in this. It was a circus right from the beginning from when the race card was being waved to Martin's family now trademarking his name. Considering his help in catching a burglar 2 weeks prior to the Martin incident, as captain of the neighborhood watch we can't say he was totally out of line. Poor judgement on his part led to a confrontation he couldn't handle and a young man ended up dead. Judging from the facts, poor judgement was his only crime.

If Martin had gotten the firearm off of Zimmerman and shot him instead, it would have still been a tragedy but a local one, not a national one. Zimmerman was portrayed as "guilty until proven innocent" in the media which is where most of us get our information from, hence why it is difficult to understand the reasoning behind the verdict.

As far as his offtopic training - according to Zimmerman he got sucker punched by Martin and fell down and that is when Martin got on top of him and was pounding him. Most training goes out the window in a situation like that when you have minimal skills to begin with.
 
But she didn't leave and come back. She went to her car but was unable to vacate because the garage door was locked and she didn't have her car keys.

But Florida's Supreme Court ruled that there is no obligation to flee - which is exactly why these laws are called 'Stand your ground' laws.
 
maybe the lesson here should be: arm ourselves at all times, if someone is following you and you feel threatened, don't flee, open fire. right? if trayvon felt threatened, he could have just opened fire on zimmerman, according to the laws on the books.

this is my plan next time i'm in florida (in december).
 
Judging from Zimmerman's version of the 'facts', I'd have to agree, but let's not confuse his version of events with the truth of what actually happened.

Yes. And you know why it would have remained a local tragedy? Because Martin would have been arrested immediately, he would have been charged and tried and found either innocent or guilty and it wouldn't have taken national media attention and mass demonstrations to convince the police and the prosecutors office to do their job.

But if the prosecutors and the police had done their job, it wouldn't have been played out in the media to nearly the extent it was. Teenagers get shot and killed all the time in America. It's only when their killers are given a free pass by the authorities that the media gets its panties in a bunch.
 
Sometimes I think that english causes some of the problems when we are trying to communicate. For example, the pavement in the US is the road while it's the side walk in the UK.

My guess, at least from when I have visited/lived in NA, the garage is outside the building and not part of the primary residence. Even if it wasn't what is clear is that there was nothing stopping this person from leaving the scene and getting away. A judge rejected Alexander’s Stand Your Ground defense, saying that she could have escaped "through the front or back door," according to court records. This was part of what the prosecution used as the reasoning behind why they threw out the stand your ground law.

The law is applied as follows:

http://www.folioweekly.com/Hot-Bullets-Cold-Truth,5556

“Stand your ground” has written limitations found in statute and court decisions and unwritten rules which cops, judges and state attorneys know but which they will disclose to you too late, if ever, when you’re before the bar in jumpsuit and chains. Lastly, there are the politics of “stand your ground,” which are smarmy.

It is impolite, of course, to hint that elected sheriffs, elected judges and elected state attorneys are influenced by the opinions of voters, the remarks of gnarled newspaper scribblers and the expressions of splendidly coiffed and barbered TV news beings. But they are. Every time there’s a grisly self-defense shooting, flacks pop out of the Police Memorial Building and courthouse to shield elites from media burn, not to help you, Mr. and Ms. Public, understand things.

So understand this:

1. You must be lawfully present where the shooting occurs. You cannot trespass or be in someone else’s house or car without permission. As soon as you get into an argument on someone else’s property, you are not lawfully present. When the shouting and pushing start, your visitation privileges are canceled.

2. You cannot be engaged in any unlawful act. If you chugged six beers while driving, sucked on a bong or gobbled those oxy-darlings you so artfully lied for at the Walmart pharmacy, your claim of self-defense will melt away just like your liver. What if, as is so often the case, the person you shoot is your drug dealer or customer? When you hear the sirens, just assume the position and hold your hoodlum hands out for the cuffs. “Stand your ground” is not a right, it’s a privilege, and it’s for law-abiding citizens only.

3. You must reasonably be in fear of death or great bodily harm. If you are defending someone else, you must reasonably believe that person is in fear of death or great bodily harm. This is easy to say but not easy to define in a courtroom.

4. You must not be the aggressor. Case in point: On Nov. 23, 2012, Michael David Dunn pulled into a Gate gas station at Southside and Baymeadows near a Durango filled with young men who were blasting music and being annoying in that ineffable, teenaged way. Dunn stated he thought he saw a shotgun. His response was to grab a Glock from the glove box, charge the Durango, and fire multiple shots into the teenagers’ vehicle, killing Jordan Davis, 17. Dunn may claim self-defense under “stand your ground,” but it won’t hold because Dunn was the aggressor and police found no shotgun.

5. You must not pursue your attacker or shoot him in the back if he flees. Case in point: In 2011, Anthony Renardo Norman was applying fists to Jennifer Charlotte Goodman’s eyeballs and jaw as he dragged her by the hair through the fragrant precincts of Shortreed Street near West Beaver Street. Goodman summoned her brothers, who opened a can of whoopass on Renardo. While her lover absorbed kicks and stomps, Goodman ran out of danger, entered the kitchen, then returned to the scene with a long knife which she plunged into his chest. The charge is second-degree murder. The judge rejected Goodman’s assertion of self-defense, apparently without irony.

6. You must not fire a warning shot. Case in point: On Aug. 1, 2010, Marissa Alexander and husband Rico Gray were having one of their periodic fights. Who shouted what and who pummeled whom are in dispute, because both parties changed their stories constantly. What’s not in dispute is that Alexander disengaged, then ran alone into the garage to grab a gun. She then re-entered the house, restarted the scrum, and fired a warning round into a wall. She claimed a “stand your ground” defense; a jury of her peers took 12 minutes to decide otherwise. Now, she’s on ice for a mandatory 20 years. Outrage at the sentence was loud, long and ineffectual. Florida legislators, Florida cops and Florida courts do not like warning shots. Fire one and weep.

7. You must not brandish a weapon or hold a potential attacker at gunpoint. See above. Oh, yeah, don’t shoot into the back of a fleeing vehicle. The only place that’s not attempted murder is on the idiot box.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

LFD
 
Only in America is killing someone a less heinous crime than firing a warning shot.
 
i think that's a little over-simplistic considering the facts of both cases. look, i think zimmerman is definitely culpable in that boy's death. unfortunately, there's not much we can do about because of the way the law is written. that's really the problem: stand your ground and castle doctrine laws.

so that's why, as a liberal, i'm going all conservative. instead of educating poor, minorities, we should put that money to better use: guns.
 
all I know is he was found innocent by a jury of his peers. case closed... done... let it rest.
 
Back
Top