Zimmerman Martin Case

[DtKat]

Simple logic and Occams Razor.

To quote a previous post:


Thats all just opinion anyway, which is pretty much all a Jury is. They are no different to you or me, we get told stuff, and then weigh up if 'we' think if its's true or not.

A court case and the opinions of a jury is nothing special, I am surprised a person of your (obvious) intelligence would think so.

Do I have proof of what 'really' happend? Absolutely not. Do I use deduction and reasoning to come to my conclusion? Yes.

Does that make me right?

I would be an ass to think so. But I still state my conclusions

 

[m3562008]

I don't think it was the court's role to determine the truth of what happened, they were only charged with determining whether Zimmerman was guilty underneath state laws beyond a reasonable doubt.

eg:

H1: Zimmerman stalked and killed Martin.

H0: Zimmerman stopped following Martin, Martin followed Zimmerman and initiated an attack.

Because we don't have sufficient evidence to support H1, we have failed to reject the null. H0 is not necessarily true, but it has not been proven to be false beyond p=0.05 or whatever.

 

[blueberryyumyumt]

It was actually a very well-done study. It was not just the classification that shifted, but the total gunshot deaths and injuries that were examined. I suggest reading it firsthand; it is written in common language and not academic speak.



Haha. Oh, I used to believe that too.

I was in a riot once where 5-6 squad cars of police showed up and decided they didn't want to be involved. They immediately left without even exiting their vehicles and let security, outnumbered 5-1, handle it.

I had a gang member point a gun at me once and threaten me and an entire crowd of 50ish people. The police arrived tardy, giving the gang member time to stash his weapon, and when they didn't find the gun, the police refused to even ask the gang member to leave the private property they were trespassing on, saying the unarmed security could handle it.

When Christopher Dorner wrote his Internet post about his grievances with the LA police department he was a veteran of, he mentioned that the police frequently refused to provide CPR to dying victims while waiting for the paramedics to arrive because they wanted the overtime money a body would create; they would also frequently play a game where they snapped photos of dead victims to exchange with other police officers as a type of joke.

I've known two police dispatchers (from very different parts of the US) who quit the job on moral grounds because they couldn't cope with the apathy of police who often openly ignored desperate emergency calls to people the dispatcher had just spoken with, or would tell very crass jokes about the victims over their radios.

 

[ReformedAscetic]

First, simple logic and Occam's razor is not evidence.

Second, a few minutes ago you were stating things with the certainty that they were FACTS (your caps, not mine). Now that I have challenged these supposed "facts", you're suddenly using words like "opinion" and admitting that you have no proof and that you can't be sure you're right.

So those things you were posting weren't really FACTS, were they?

The argument you appear to be making now is that the jury has a conclusion and you have a conclusion, and that I ought to regard the two as equally valid, because all people are fallible. The problems with that argument are (1) that there are six of them and there is one of you, (2) that they heard the case in court and you are gleaning what you can from the media, and (3) that I just caught you making guesses and calling them facts.

 

[ChuckC]

Z had probable cause. He was on the neighborhood watch. There were burgularies weeks before. Z's injuries were from being hit and his head being pounded in the concrete. A witness testified to seeing this and then going insde to dial the police. As soon as that witness went inside, he heard gun fire

 

[LindseyH]

To refute some of your "facts" and to clarify a few things -

George Zimmerman was the captain of his neighborhood watch. In the past year they had a number of burglaries and lots of attempts, and Zimmerman himself had called 911 reporting suspicious males several times before Martin. Three weeks prior to the shooting, Zimmerman called 911 on a young black male peeking in windows and that male was arrested with stolen property and eventually tied to at least one burglary in the area.

Neighborhood watch members can and do report suspicious activity all the time. Zimmerman was not stalking under the legal definition - he was simply following Martin and reporting him to 911. Both of these are legal actions.

Was the death unfortunate? Yes. Could it have been better handled? Yes. Did Zimmerman lack sound judgement? Yes. But did he behave criminally? According to jurors, no. If he had pulled out his firearm and shot Martin dead with no provocation, that's one thing. But Martin was on top of him striking him and Zimmerman stated at the time feared he was in danger of serious bodily injury. In that respect, his use of deadly force was justified.

With this incident, hopefully they will make some stringent laws regarding neighborhood watch groups which will prevent this from happening in the future.

 

[ukhtifiislam]

Actually I quoted what Martin himself said in the "cracker" comment. Therefore I said "because some "cracker" got off". Those were Martin's words... not mine. Don't try to make out i'm some racist because I used the EXACT word that Martin himself used.

I said that they were acting like 5 year olds. Did I say anywhere that they were all black? How does me saying that they "the protestors" acted like that make me racist exactly? You need to calm down and not be so ready to throw that word at people or label them so simply because some speaks their mind.

 

[ErikG]

Didnt you see cptequinox' face in that court room? He was there looking at ALL of the evidence and material JUST like the jurors



Not if you are a rich black athelete with a good defense team, or a poor troubled teen with criminal mischief or a record as long as the dead sea Scrolls



Also, if GZ was so "anxious" to shoot someone WHY;

-Did he call the cops?

-Did he not have his gun already drawn and pointed, and shot without getting beaten?

-Does everyone want to "paint a innocent picture" of someone "supposedly" not doing any wrong?

 

[kenloften]

Some of that sounds seriously questionable to me. Ignoring calls for service is a serious thing, and unprofessional behavior on the radio can get you in trouble in all the departments I know of.

Dorner was deployed right after finishing his academy training and thus was still in field training when the alleged abuse occurred by his training officer. According to some LAPD friends of mine, he was taken off the streets pending his investigation (as often happens in many departments) and thus had very little street time so I find it hard to believe that he saw a lot of what he claimed to see.

 

[mizzchelle80]

How come this did make the news on a grand scale?

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2013/07/13/Man-beaten-by-bored-teens-dies-1-year-later.html

or this

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/ben-cohen/inconvenient-truths-about-the-trayvon-martin-shooting/2/

Someone sent me this email, but I had to edit it before posting;
What you have is a punk teen that wanted to be a gangster, used drugs, got suspended for 10 days for having a empty Ziploc and smoking pipe with weed residue, father removed him from his mother and home town to keep him out of trouble. You can take the punk out of the ghetto, but you cant take the ghetto out of the punk.

This punk was not so innocent. He had attacked Zimerman for following him, was beating on him, smashing his head in to the concrete. There was a eye-witness. Zimerman's voice is heard on calling for help. Zimerman pulled out a gun, and shot the punk in self defense. Punk may have got shot and killed by a homie in his own town anyway
___________________________________________________________

Now, I can see where there would be only two outcomes; Not Guilty or Manslaughter (if beyond a reasonable doubt)

But just like people are trying to paint a picture-character of Z, those same do not do so for M.

Since people desire to challenge Z's character, we have to do so for M;

Again, I must state, what you have is a person frustrated by break-ins, etc, wanting to be a cop, instead settled for a Neighborhood Watch, followed someone (no law against), mistakenly getting out of the car.

The other person, has a history of drugs and violence. Visiting the area because of problems from another place, because he was supposed to be there, got angry because he was being followed, confronted, beat up a individual (with a witness account) and got shot and killed for not breaking off the attack.

This is what fired police chief found, the first prosecutor, the first DA, etc. Racial and political outcry demanded a trial. And the result was to be expected as these first professionals who understood what the outcome would be prior

In additional, to return with a federal investigation, which by the way, was done way before the verdict, only demonstrates racial and political outcry again as the agenda is mainly to calm down tension

 

[Wretch]

Why do you keep bringing up the OJ trial? Is it perhaps that this is the only major case you know of in which a minority was treated more like they were white in the eyes of the law? You know that minorities(African-Americans in particular) are seen as guilty until proven innocent in the eyes of the police, courts, media, and society at large. Your an intelligent person so I wonder why you keep coming up with these odd comments that you know are off-base.



Why do you want to paint Martin as anything other than innocent? Do you have some evidence that he was up to no good while walking in the vicinity of his father's house or do you want to suggest that he was high on Skittles and acting suspiciously because of that(is this your Twinkie defense)?

Your logic is lacking. Calling the cops gives a good alibi, and if you believe that Zimmerman was a racist zealot, why do you then need to find Martin as anything other than an innocent teen walking home to justify Zimmerman's stalking? Very odd reasoning.

 

[LilyWebber]

Ah, I see. You didn't take the time to think how the timbre of the conversation would be affected by what you posted. You didn't specify a subject so your response, due to the use of the word cracker, will most likely be construed as aimed at minorities. I understand that you might not have ever studied sociology or looked at the social dynamics of rioting, but posting in the manner you did below and the things you've been saying throughout this thread made me wonder. Now, being a nice guy, I gave you the benefit of the doubt by asking. Your emotional and somewhat knee-jerk reaction seems a bit ironic in lieu of how you wish to classify the protesters. Perhaps not racist but poorly worded and sensitive. Happy?



Martin wasn't a protester though so by using his words in allusion to the protestors, you made your first logical leap from reality. Speaking your mind is fine, but hopefully one would do so after a bit of thought, deliberation, and perhaps discussion with others before saying something you might regret. For example, have you discussed this with any of your minority friends or colleagues? Did that discussion lead you to any different understanding?

 

[the~maiden~xanz]

The OJ trial was racial and political. Like Z, he was the only one left to account for what happened. Like Z, the evidence, or lack of concrete evidence, could only direct to a aquittal.

Don't talk to me about minorities being guilty until proven innocent (Which BTW, is what people were doing to Z)

I have been around minorities of many cultures for decades. I even sponsored groups. I even had created a all-black (well mostly- with a few hispanics) Martial Art school in such a area (I have pics)

Prejudicies and profiles have a degree of truth, spiced with a little exaggeration.

Being from the 70's with long hair, hippie look, I was targeted by police. Especially when I hung around my black friends.

If the shoe fits.......however, TM it does, thus going onto;




The same people who paint him as a small innocent black child




Your logic is lacking. What a way to debate your side

But just like people are trying to paint a picture-character of Z, those same do not do so for M.

Since people desire to challenge Z's character, we have to do so for M;

Martin was not so small as people are led to believe. Martin had a lot of street fights. Then we have to look upon age and physique.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/05/new_evidence_shows_trayvons_life_unraveling.html

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/03/27/trayvon-martin-was-apparently-a-17-year-old-

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/trayvon_thug_pix_V4CWSyAmYQSPByr2ssCRhM

AND THE MAIN THING PEOPLE SEEM TO FORGET OR NOT ACCOUNT;
http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/06/28/questions-still-loom-over-george-zimmerman-trial

 

[JamesE]

Poor Tray;


Tawana Sharpton is counting on America will not wake up to the fact that the dead thug’s “ice tea & skittles” is actually 2/3s of a ghetto-neighborhood homemade street drug called “Lean” that can kill you (and did kill some rapper ghetto pimp guy) and, that on the dead thug’s texts, he was looking for the 3rd ingredient so he could get stoned.

http://thinkingisasin.blogspot.com/2012/11/trayvon-martin-abused-street-drug-lean.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/28/trayvon-martin-drug-use-barred

 

[Cynsationz]

Thing you're ignoring for some reason or another is that in the eyes of the law, our courts, and society, minorities are targeting and treated differently because of the color of their skin. If you can't deal with that fact, you might as well stick your head in the sand. Don't believe it, crack a book, the evidence is overwhelming and not in dispute.

OJ did not get off because he was black, he got off in spite of it. That is the other aspect you are ignoring. Usually, it is the other way around.


That is a false assumption. Martin was not so small as people are led to believe. Martin had a lot of street fights. Then we have to look upon age and physique.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/05/new_evidence_shows_trayvons_life_unraveling.html

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/03/27/trayvon-martin-was-apparently-a-17-year-old-

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/trayvon_thug_pix_V4CWSyAmYQSPByr2ssCRhM[/QUOTE]

More the reason not to stalk him and then confront him(possibly, we'll never know). Size, his experience, etc notwithstanding, he was walking down the street minding his own business. You can't racially profile him for doing that even if he is big and has been in street fights before and is high on Skittles in a neighborhood in which other people of his race might have committed crimes. Don't you get that? Innocent until proven guilty. So I'll ask again, what evidence do you have that he was doing anything other than minding his own business?

 

[armbar60805]

Now he's a thug? Wow, really? You just watch some dumb Michael Douglas movie or did you just miss your coffee?



You didn't get stoned in the 70s? Why don't you stick with evidence as your opinion is quickly starting to sound like something Rush would spew. Was there any evidence that he was high? Speculation, which some were cautioning against towards Zimmerman earlier in the thread, is interestingly not an issue when aimed at Martin.

However, it is so refreshing that unlike in the ninjutsu forum, here we can all agree to disagree in the spirit of martial brotherhood without resorting to some of the more nefarious exchanges you find there. Well, it's been interesting.

 

[legiro]

OMG P.L.E.A.S.E. IS OUT OF REALITY

Here is some more...but you aren't going to be reading, as it so seems


Written by a black man;

http://wakeupblackamerica.blogspot.com/


OJ got off because he had money for a good defense and there was lack of evidence....P.L.E.A.S.E.
THAT AND THERE WAS RACIAL AND POLITICAL OUTCRY

 

[interesante]

He wasn't stalked. (In the over-statement of the word to seem sinister) Why are people using such a dumbfounded, inaccurate word? Thats right, to make it seem like he was a poor little black boy skipping and eating skittles

I can follow/observe/report anyone which I havent seen before in my area.

I will not "stalk" anyone, except my wife

 

[WeAreTheIndustry]

When I buy ice tea and skittles people assume I'm just hungry and thirsty. I guess if you get shot you're looking for a high though.

 

[BethX]

How often that you do this after texting that you have knowledge of how to make or look for a drug along these lines?

How often do you do this walking in a area that you are visiting?

How often do you do this while being followed?

Do you own a hoodie?

Are you in a area that had a lot of criminal mischief?

Yep, come in my area that I havent seen you before, beat up on me and start offtopic ground and pound, hitting my head on concrete, well, yeah, you could get shot

Then I will tell the police it was self defense while eating the rest of your skittles