Zimmerman Martin Case
- Thread starter ChristophB
- Start date
blancaybonita
New member
Yeah, there is no doubt that the police are grossly understaffed, dangerously so. For the foreigners who don't know, some US jurisdictions are no longer sending officers to investigate robberies/assaults if the threat isn't imminent.
CHICAGO POLICE NOT RESPONDING TO 911 CALLS ANYMORE - YouTube
I have the utmost respect for sensitive, intelligent, dedicated officers in the US, especially knowing how dangerous their job is in many places.
CHICAGO POLICE NOT RESPONDING TO 911 CALLS ANYMORE - YouTube
I have the utmost respect for sensitive, intelligent, dedicated officers in the US, especially knowing how dangerous their job is in many places.
You clearly didn't read the studies at all, or if you did failed to understand them. While in this case it does not apply, institutionalized racism is very much alive and well in the good ole USA. From an academic standpoint, it is literally an untenable argument to state otherwise. You might as well be arguing against gravity. It has been proven over and over and over again in studies from all over the US from many dozens of academic institutions or undercover journalists representing a variety of media outlets. There are video documentaries supporting it which will probably have a far greater emotional impact on someone who doesn't have the math training to grasp when the statistical analysis is valid and meaningful.
tdenisem01
New member
Theory #1: despite three decades of not being remotely racist, in fact affirmatively doing things a racist would never do like volunteer with underprivileged African-American youth and protest police treatment of an African-American homeless man, he spontaneously becomes profoundly racist one year in his mid-thirties, starts ignoring "suspicious"-acting people with pale skin even though he's called police on them in the past, and then hunts and kills a black young man for sport, after calling the cops so that they'd arrive right when he committed his premeditated racist murder.
Theory #2: He's called the police nearly fifty times on men and women, young and old, black and white. Sanford, Florida has a large African-American population. The last half-dozen suspicious person calls just happened to involve African-Americans. One of them vigorously attacks him, something he has never experienced in the past with his ~50 police calls, so he does something he's never done in the past, which is utilize his conceal-carry pistol in self-defense.
Now apply Occam's Razor.
Theory #2: He's called the police nearly fifty times on men and women, young and old, black and white. Sanford, Florida has a large African-American population. The last half-dozen suspicious person calls just happened to involve African-Americans. One of them vigorously attacks him, something he has never experienced in the past with his ~50 police calls, so he does something he's never done in the past, which is utilize his conceal-carry pistol in self-defense.
Now apply Occam's Razor.
speedviper007
New member
Clearly, either Zimmerman was playing The Most Dangerous Game or he's modern-day saint. No room for nuance when we're begging the question, eh?
So I have a side bar question:
If a culture can be institutionally racist can the same apply in reverse?
It has been interesting, both as a traveller and having lived on more than one continent to see how racism rears it's head in many places. Oddly enough I would have thought the US is overtly far less racist than many other countries or cultures. Sometimes it's less obvious to those of us that can't see shades of colour so easily. I know that , at least in the past, Viets and Chinese were quite at odds. Similarly you could see the same sorts of things going on in Africa and in Europe. I know that when a local Hungarian lad was asked if he was Polish he threatened to kill his questioner. The roots of who is us and who is them is not so easy to see as what a person wears or what the colour of their skin appears to be.
This is a highly complex issue that is far too often reduced to ''whites versus blacks'' or ''whites versus asians'' or whatever.. considering the people involved often no longer fit into easily discerned ''racial'' groups seems to be ignored. In Britain being ''asian'' is in many ways the equivalent to being ''irish'' in that both as sub-cultures of what is essentially the ''caucasian''. Yes things aren't purely one way or another but this isn't a ''racial'' deliniation as much as a cultural one. Not really any different than the way the Hungarians and the Poles see each other.
So back to the rant... white people can be effectively racist to other whites (and black people to other blacks) depending on the circumstances. Equally I would think that each sub-group will have ''institutional'' biases as to how it perceives the group that it is in conflict with. Is this plausible? Could it be that some ''people of colour'' expect to be treated badly because that is built into how they perceive things? I am not saying it is their fault or that they do anything purposefully to make this happen. Just as a white police force is considered to be racist purely due the majority of the officers being white then wouldn't a community group equally be racist in their expectations of how the ''crackers'' and ''po po'' were going to behave?
Probably being more of a devil's advocate than need be but I thought growing up that we were all getting along well together (in our multi-cultural society). From some of the stuff I am seeing on here it might be concluded that it wasn't really the case/
Thoughts?
LFD
If a culture can be institutionally racist can the same apply in reverse?
It has been interesting, both as a traveller and having lived on more than one continent to see how racism rears it's head in many places. Oddly enough I would have thought the US is overtly far less racist than many other countries or cultures. Sometimes it's less obvious to those of us that can't see shades of colour so easily. I know that , at least in the past, Viets and Chinese were quite at odds. Similarly you could see the same sorts of things going on in Africa and in Europe. I know that when a local Hungarian lad was asked if he was Polish he threatened to kill his questioner. The roots of who is us and who is them is not so easy to see as what a person wears or what the colour of their skin appears to be.
This is a highly complex issue that is far too often reduced to ''whites versus blacks'' or ''whites versus asians'' or whatever.. considering the people involved often no longer fit into easily discerned ''racial'' groups seems to be ignored. In Britain being ''asian'' is in many ways the equivalent to being ''irish'' in that both as sub-cultures of what is essentially the ''caucasian''. Yes things aren't purely one way or another but this isn't a ''racial'' deliniation as much as a cultural one. Not really any different than the way the Hungarians and the Poles see each other.
So back to the rant... white people can be effectively racist to other whites (and black people to other blacks) depending on the circumstances. Equally I would think that each sub-group will have ''institutional'' biases as to how it perceives the group that it is in conflict with. Is this plausible? Could it be that some ''people of colour'' expect to be treated badly because that is built into how they perceive things? I am not saying it is their fault or that they do anything purposefully to make this happen. Just as a white police force is considered to be racist purely due the majority of the officers being white then wouldn't a community group equally be racist in their expectations of how the ''crackers'' and ''po po'' were going to behave?
Probably being more of a devil's advocate than need be but I thought growing up that we were all getting along well together (in our multi-cultural society). From some of the stuff I am seeing on here it might be concluded that it wasn't really the case/
Thoughts?
LFD
TaylorProud
New member
who said that he kills black people for sport? where did you ever see me say that? you've mentioned it now at least twice. who said it was premeditated murder? did you ever read where i've said "premeditated racial murder"? you're totally misrepresenting what i've said about institutional racism and how it manifests itself.
sure, go ahead and apply occam's razor to your straw-manning of my argument. that'd be great. ta-dah! i guess mitlov's won that one.
way to keep the blinders on.
sure, go ahead and apply occam's razor to your straw-manning of my argument. that'd be great. ta-dah! i guess mitlov's won that one.
way to keep the blinders on.
adult_diapers34
New member
fact: george zimmerman followed and called the police on a "suspicious" person that was walking, doing nothing other than walking through the neighborhood.
go ask a black male what they think. no, seriously. ask a black man what made trayvon "suspicious" in george zimmerman's eyes. then tell me with a straight fact there's no racism in america.
go ask a black male what they think. no, seriously. ask a black man what made trayvon "suspicious" in george zimmerman's eyes. then tell me with a straight fact there's no racism in america.
I don't really understand the question.
Institutional racism is a different beast than "I hate those damn Snoodgrassians!"
I don't think it's necessarily as simple as 'all white police force, therefore racist.' I also don't think it's just a matter of black expectations. Social institutions aren't just groups of people, but critical components of society like the criminal justice system. This isn't an issue of people disliking each other, it's about the way our society functions. The fact that a populace might not like an all white police force could be an issue, but what's a greater issue (in my opinion) are the sociological and economic forces that create things like all white police forces.
I think we're doing better than when we regarded blacks strictly as property, I think folks like MLK had very real and positive effects on society, but I think things could be a lot better.
Institutional racism is a different beast than "I hate those damn Snoodgrassians!"
I don't think it's necessarily as simple as 'all white police force, therefore racist.' I also don't think it's just a matter of black expectations. Social institutions aren't just groups of people, but critical components of society like the criminal justice system. This isn't an issue of people disliking each other, it's about the way our society functions. The fact that a populace might not like an all white police force could be an issue, but what's a greater issue (in my opinion) are the sociological and economic forces that create things like all white police forces.
I think we're doing better than when we regarded blacks strictly as property, I think folks like MLK had very real and positive effects on society, but I think things could be a lot better.
Phillypianoman
New member
I should show you some of the posts from some of the 'black males' I served with on Facebook and how they think all this racist crap involved in this case is . . . . crap. You would probably just say they are a different kind of people because they serve in the military though and that they don't count based on the kind of assumptions and blanket generalizations you've been making page after page.
Or maybe some posts from the "black males" at my boxing gym? All of which never mentioned race and actually have a problem with the verdict because they believe the actions of Zimmerman was wrong in the first place, yet their explanation on their opinion had nothing to do with race.
I grew up in a black community and I didn't hear as many woes about racism as you've thrown out in this thread. I don't deny that there are problems but I'm willing to bet they are more significantly tied into poverty due to racism in the past. This in my mind transfers over to racism based on observation with association in crime (as minorities are the ones who are poorer, and poor people often commit crime, and if you're poor you're not affording yourself a good legal defense hence greater charges, but not in every case I'm sure). It's not the kind of "inferior race" kind of racism though. You would probably do better getting your point across if you didn't make it sound like all of white America would rather be patrolling the streets as a lynch mob.
The lack of articulating the problem correctly and blanketing it with the term 'racism' is where I think the major turn off is. It is for me anyhow.
Or maybe some posts from the "black males" at my boxing gym? All of which never mentioned race and actually have a problem with the verdict because they believe the actions of Zimmerman was wrong in the first place, yet their explanation on their opinion had nothing to do with race.
I grew up in a black community and I didn't hear as many woes about racism as you've thrown out in this thread. I don't deny that there are problems but I'm willing to bet they are more significantly tied into poverty due to racism in the past. This in my mind transfers over to racism based on observation with association in crime (as minorities are the ones who are poorer, and poor people often commit crime, and if you're poor you're not affording yourself a good legal defense hence greater charges, but not in every case I'm sure). It's not the kind of "inferior race" kind of racism though. You would probably do better getting your point across if you didn't make it sound like all of white America would rather be patrolling the streets as a lynch mob.
The lack of articulating the problem correctly and blanketing it with the term 'racism' is where I think the major turn off is. It is for me anyhow.
MidnightExpress
New member
Yes there is racism in the US (and other countries) and some people in power are racist and I agree with that.
But the cry of racism or “playing the race card” in every situation that involves black Americans is in its self a form of racism.
Racism should be judged on a case by case basis with institutions and people. And race, poverty and injustice are entwined and not for lack of a better word just “black and white”.
But the cry of racism or “playing the race card” in every situation that involves black Americans is in its self a form of racism.
Racism should be judged on a case by case basis with institutions and people. And race, poverty and injustice are entwined and not for lack of a better word just “black and white”.
In this case the guy got away on a technicality of the law it happens.
He was robbed and while it is legal to shoot a fleeing robber (in some cases) and I agree with this in strong armed robbery, in this case it was unnecessary.
The woman and her pimp came to rob the guy from the get go.
She got the money and ran. This is a fairly common with “escorts”
He was robbed and while it is legal to shoot a fleeing robber (in some cases) and I agree with this in strong armed robbery, in this case it was unnecessary.
The woman and her pimp came to rob the guy from the get go.
She got the money and ran. This is a fairly common with “escorts”
shergalfarkey
New member
Seems now that everything coming will be compared to the Zimmerman case -
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/07/trayvon-martin-jordan-davis-stand-your-ground
LFD
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/07/trayvon-martin-jordan-davis-stand-your-ground
LFD
Chesticles
Member
Thought that this said something to the issues at hand!
http://www.dailydot.com/lol/kids-react-cheerios-commercial-race/
Really great to see kids at work!!
LFD
http://www.dailydot.com/lol/kids-react-cheerios-commercial-race/
Really great to see kids at work!!
LFD
According to the 911 call, Zimmerman reported he looked like he was up to no good as it was raining out and he was "walking around, looking about." They had a rash of burglaries and attempted break ins in the area. Is it unreasonable to assume that by seeing a young man he doesn't know walking around in the rain and looking all around that Zimmerman thought he could be looking around for vulnerable homes to burglarize? Most people, especially in the rain, tend to walk with a purpose. If Martin had been white or Hispanic, I believe Zimmerman would have called all the same.