Zimmerman Martin Case

[PhantomMenace]

I don't mind the goths, but emo kids should definitely get it.

On a serious note about Goths though; some people did try to pin the blame for Columbine on Marilyn Manson.

But I think the important distinction is that goths didn't grow out of the ghettoization of a section of society. They have been brought up in mainstream culture and are a part of it (no matter how much they might protest at the idea ).

Gangsta rap has been commercialized and sold as a fashion to mainstream culture, it is ridiculous to presume kids with their bum hanging out of their pants and wearing a hoodie are slinging rocks and pimping hoes. The overwhelming majority are not, just as the overwhelming majority of Muslims have no involvement in terrorist activities.

 

[ShOcKAbSoRbEr]

Manchester: http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/apr/03/manchester-police-goths-punks-hate-crime

 

[GoSoxGo]

its why I have so much respect for emo and goth people. I don't have anywhere near the self confidence to be open about a subculture that gets so much abuse. Hell I've only just started feeling comfortable being open about liking nerdy things like gaming and warhammer.

But anyway I completely agree with you David. The idea that Martin was bad because of how he was dressed was silly. The problem is that stereotyping people like that, and I think its quite a natural thing to do, is so commonplace that I can't really fault Zimmerman too much for it. I think he was wrong to do so, but I also don't think he was doing anything a lot of other people wouldn't do. From a legal perspective if I was a juror I wouldn't think he was doing anything unreasonable for the average person.

Unfortunately stopping that kind of stereotyping and bigotry is going to take a very very long time. Hell MAP's pretty liberal and even here we still had a lot of people slamming body mods on a thread about it last year saying they were weird people and were all idiots.

 

[katt121]

In the wake of the Columbine High shooting in Colorado, I had several friends who were threatened and one who was beaten unconscious for wearing goth clothing. Not funny, dude.

 

[jesusd]

In that case I apologise for any offence caused.

I've never heard of people being beaten up for wearing goth clothing, otherwise I wouldn't have made a facetious remark about it.

 

[ShahabM]

General rule - any distinctive subculture has, at some point, been victimised and attacked. The only exceptions are ones which formed too recently to have attracted hostile attention as yet.

I feel pretty confident in saying that. If anyone can point to one where that doesn't apply, feel free to do so.

 

[lfc4ever1]

Its quite telling though that people felt it was cool to make that sort of joke about the emo and goth subculture. I wasn't offended by it at all or anything like that, but I found it interesting no one really bats an eye at ribbing those groups but Obewan got some stick for insulting the gangsta culture.

 

[bx]

I don't think it's the same at all.

Making jokes about clothing/music/hairstyles you don't like is not the same as saying an entire cultural/ethnic group deserve to be viewed with suspicion because they are likely to be criminals.

I don't think anyone would take serious offence if someone made a joke about disliking hip-hop, or wearing clothes 3 sizes too big, or not being able to put a cap on the right way round.

It was a shame that Johnno caused offence with his goth comment, but he did so innocently out of ignorance, and he obviously didn't mean it. Worlds apart from some of the bigotry (and in the case of the OP, outright racism) seen in this thread.

 

[EastCoastAssassin]

No its not in hindsight. Still, Its weird you can say that sort of thing about certain subcultures but if I said something similar about, say, the flamboyant gay culture It'd probably be less acceptable.



Saying someone wearing a hoody could be seen suspiciously is bad but saying someone wearing a trench coat should be shot isn't?



I personally didn't take offence, I'm good with joking about pretty much anything. But I'm confused why a joke saying someone deserves to be shot is acceptable for one culture but criticising another isn't. I just couldn't see a joke about all gangstas deserving to be shot getting the same leeway.

Plus I shouldn't have to point out that the gangsta culture does have some reasonable reasons for being viewed as suspicious in the same way hoodies in the uk do. I'm trying to think of an equal reason to say goths should be shot and I'm struggling.



This isn't a jab at you personally but Johnno gets to be defended for being ignorant of hate attacks against goths and emos but Obewan didn't get a pass for having a serious personal experience that may have coloured his view slightly? That seems unreasonable to say the least.

 

[EvanF]

Do you really think that it's the same to say things about subcultures as it is about entire ethnic groups?

I could become a goth if I so wished, but I couldn't become part of another ethnic group. I'm not saying that that gives me free rein to say anything I like about goths, but it does make a difference to a small degree.

It was meant as a joke. I honestly had no idea that anyone could be offended by a joke about goths, so that was just ignorance on my part. When Mitlov said that he found it offensive I aopogised immediately, and I won't make that mistake again.

Personally I would have no problem with someone making a joke about all gangstas being shot. But if someone says that all black gangstas or all white gangstas should be shot then it takes on a different dimension.

I think it was what Obewan said specifically about balcks which caused a few raised eyebrows.

 

[OMGttt]

I made the comparison between making a joke about goths and certain parts of a specific gay culture. That's not an ethnic group. I'm also not comparing your joke to comments about black people as a whole but to comments about hoodies and the specific gangsta culture.



I know mate, and I'm really not fussed about it myself. I'm not really complaining about it as such its just something I was thinking about. Sort of a follow up of what I said to David a few posts back about how its still seen as ok to insult certain things because they're still not seen as "normal." I've seen the same thing with sub cultures where some of them you can't really insult now because they're popular and it upsets people, but some are perfectly fine to rip a bit more.

Kinda like how these days insulting people for playing video games gets the eyes rolling because now its a normal thing to do but you could get away a lot more with cracking on LARPers because its still seen as weird. If that makes any sense at all?



I agree. But from what I remember, and I should probably look it up, there were also defences made for the gangsta culture by itself, completely irrelevant of race. The reasoning being that it is a predominantly black culture and by insulting it by some extension you're insulting black people.



And I still think in context it was understandable. Not justified or right mind you, but understandable. Like I said before I disagree with the idea that I should be viewed suspiciously if I choose to wear a hood up at night, and I'm in the right there, but I still get why it causes a certain reaction in some people.

 

[ChodMaster2e0Unmasked]

Depends what you say I guess. If I said most of the music at gay clubs I've been to made me want to perforate my eardrums with a fork I don't think anyone would mind too much.



Saying someone wearing a hoody could be seen suspiciously is bad but saying someone wearing a trench coat should be shot isn't?


Depends on the context. In this thread it's misjudged, but for instance Dean saying when he's emporer of the world all people who've chopped a melon on someone's stomach with a sword will die goes by without mention. We joke about killing people all the time.

But the big difference was that one was a misjudged joke, the other was a serious view being expressed.


This isn't a jab at you personally but Johnno gets to be defended for being ignorant of hate attacks against goths and emos but Obewan didn't get a pass for having a serious personal experience that may have coloured his view slightly? That seems unreasonable to
say the least.

Come on, you're arguing as if Johnno literally meant he wanted to murder people in cold blood. And Obewan said he was happy for his views (real ones, not joke ones) to be challenged. Not the same deal at all, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Onthefence]

In a way I can see Southpaw's point. Over the last century we have finally come to the belief that we can't pick on minorities especially in regard to race and increasingly gender. We go on about how everybody should be treated equally regardless of race, gender, sexuality etc. We understand that making jokes about mentally handicapped people is hurtful, yet for some reason it's still ok to make fun of emo's, goths, gingers, blonds etc. Somehow we don't see this as being hurtful to those people, "we just joking" they say, and it's not like these people don't feel ostracised enough. As Mitlov said people do get beaten for being "different" and until people realise making jokes about them is hurtful, just as gay jokes are, people are going to continue to ostracise them leading to depression and more frequently than should be suicide. If we are going to go on about equality and a fair society then we need to make sure that covers everybody and not just the "big" groups. JMHO.

And yeah I'm guilty for joking about emo's and goth's as anyone

 

[Jl2damax]

Doesn't it come down to familiarity?

I've had/got goth friends, I've gothed-up to go on nights out with them, I've had idiots shout stuff at me. I feel that makes it ok for me to joke about them.

I've never been to Watts, L.A., I don't know what it's like for people there, or what they go through outside of media representations. So it's not ok for me to joke about them.

I wouldn't joke about Islam, because I don't know enough about it. But I feel fine joking about Christianity, because I grew up with it. Just like I wouldn't ridicule Pashtun culture, but I would ridicule middle-England.

Of course, this is in public, I'm rarely bothered by the content of any joke when there's no-one around to be offended by it, and judge them on their merits of humorous content, construction and delivery.

I basically reckon:

Familiarity, affection and joshing = ok (even though it may still touch a nerve with some people)

Xenophobia, suspicion and bigotry = not ok

 

[therefridgerator]

I think if you go back and read my last post you will see that I said "multi racial" gangsta rap culture...

 

[tiny_lil_hottie]

When it's with your friends who's reactions you know well and no one else that is one thing, but in public does the fact you're familiar with the subject mean that people won't feel hurt and depressed by their characteristics being the butt of jokes?

 

[spicy]

It just depends on how cruel the jokes are, doesn't it?

What if I joke about my receding hairline? Is that offensive to bald people? Where do you draw the line?

I remember hearing a female Muslim stand-up doing a routine about getting groped during her hajj in Mecca, and subsequently finding out that it is not an uncommon experience for women. Many Muslims were offended by it. Should she have been censored?

Should "Jerry Springer The Opera" have been officially banned for upsetting Christians? Was the banning of Monty Python's "Life of Brian" the correct thing to do?

 

[PinkMay]

None of the above she be banned. I am Scottish/Irish and catholic, i'm sure you could imagine the jokes and insults that have been slung at me in my time and sometimes they are hurtfull but i would never suggest censor.

It is a free society and people must use tact and a bit of class/common sense when conversing/joking with or about other people. Although i could do without English people trying to pull off a really dodgy scottish accent - unless they are good that is.

On a side note i have noticed the use of the word "minority" or to pluralise "minorities" - maybe it's just me and although in my culture we are aware of the word but never use it. I actually find that particular word to be quite degrading to the ethnicity of the epeople it tries to portray.

Baza

 

[bsparks]

One thing I'd like to point out is that over the last 50 years people have become much more acceptive of differences in race, beliefs, cultures, and sexual orientation. And even though we still have a long way to go (if we ever get there) to a world without bias, I do think that accepting and realizing that you may be deviating from the mainstream, you should recognize that people are going to look at you with a query, it's just human nature I suppose.

 

[Psycho78]

I know a few "alternative" types who would be rather disappointed if no-one thought they were weird, or stopped getting double-takes walking down the street.