Zimmerman Martin Case

[Titan]

In that post, but not in a few others.

I think OwlMatt and Mitlov pretty much nailed it in terms of response, so there's no point going over it again.

You did say some cool stuff too, BTW. I, in know way, want you painted out as some kind of villain. I also think it's cool the way you've taken other's opinions and criticisms on board.

 

[mizchampion]

Thanks David, I don't mind criticisms that's how we learn.

 

[derekjacob92]

Thank you for putting that far better than I did.

I want to reiterate as well that I wasn't trying to say those jokes shouldn't be made. I make jokes about pretty much everything and humour's too subjective to complain. Plus I think a lot of us forget MAP is an open forum. When you've been here a while you become very relaxed as you get to know the regular posters.

I wasn't trying to dig at you for the comment Johnno it was just something I started thinking about after I read your comment. I like thinking

 

[out]

To be honest I do think there is a huge difference between judging somewhat for an inherent or ingrained trait (and yes, I do include religious status as ingrained) and judging them for the 'look' they've chosen to portray.

The reason there's a difference is, very simply, that it is a choice that they have made to appear that way. Someone dressing as a goth is choosing to represent a certain subculture, with a certain vague stereotype - thus making the choice to deliberately associate themselves with that stereotype. Same with punks, businessmen, chavs, bankers, yuppies, furries, cosplayers, and any other subculture you could choose to name where the uniform is optional.

That doesn't mean they should be judged as bad people, but for example I share very few interests with the general 'emo' stereotype, so would not seek them out for conversation and might actively avoid it in the same way I'd avoid someone wearing a football shirt.

 

[hokosse]

Somewhat agree.

If someone desires a certain appearance, surely they know first hand on how they will be stereotyped-casted.

After all, it is what "lured-impressed" it upon them in the first place

This is like canines. People desire pitbiulls, and it isn't to play frisbee toss with

There are some "truths" behind stereotypes.

If the shoe fits.....but upon accepting shoe, there will be some uncomfortable miss-judgments

 

[iPodLover]

The purpose of someone dressing in a certain way is not for you to associate them with a stereotype. They're doing it for their own reasons that likely are unconnected with that stereotype. And they likely dislike that everyone associates that stereotype with them.

Young women generaly don't wear black-and-red velvet because they're desperately hoping you assume they write bad poetry, smoke cloves, and cut themselves. They do it because they like how those clothes look on them.

Cosplayers don't dress up as characters from their favorite sci-fi/fantasy/comic because they hope you think they're socially-awkward losers who live in their parents basement. They do it because they enjoy doing it and have fun doing so.

 

[questiongirl]

I can agree with both this post and MM's. The problem is this... if on the news you see pictures of people who are criminals or are wanted for a crime, they might be wearing a hoodie and a pair of pants down to their knees. You see enough of this and it becomes association. The same way many people now link pit bulls to be vicious dogs simply because that is the only dog that makes the headlines, all other dogs attacks are often ignored. If anyone is responsible for this generalization it's the media.

 

[RadTech]

Exactly!!!

The media stirs up a lot of it.

In turn, the general public believes the media without scrutiny

I have a few friends from India.

One buddy, at one time in his life, had his beard growing out and while going into a tall office building, we were stopped, and on two occasions, he (not me) was asked where was he from.

He had the appearance of a terroist profile

When they found out he was from India, they asked if he liked hot-peppery food and that he shouldn't eat beef. Which, BTW, his faith from India, they could eat beef.

Hence the profile and sterotyping

 

[ilovedooneys]

It#s a bit 'chicken and egg' really. If there are lots of chavs walking around with pitbulls then the pitbulls are going to get a bad rep even if they didn't chew little kids faces off. Fact is that there are no doubt plenty of well-raised pitbulls that are fine around kids. But it only takes either a few instances of attacks on kids (which are bound to make the headlines, you can't blame the media for that) or else enough people to see them being kept by chavs, and hey presto the breed's got a bad rep.

 

[andrem]

i see what he's saying. I don't tell "blond jokes" for kind of that reason.

 

[JonathanO]

I love blonde jokes. It's not like they're an oppressed minority or anything. If there's one type of joke which is safe, then surely it's the blonde one?

 

[Izabelle]

So you don't think blondes get upset about being profiled as being stupid, sex obsessed bimbos? And you don't think that constantly telling blonde jokes doesn't reinforce this? According to wiki there have been studies showing that people do consider blondes less capable for jobs requiring intelligence.
What about redheads? Is it ok to call them rangas? My 10 year old nephew used to come home in tears from getting called ranga at school.
No matter how harmless you think it is, you're still singling out a portion of the population to make fun of.

 

[PROMISE]

Do you think that there is a difference between making jokes about blondes and making them about redheads?

 

[Jamiegirl23]

No.
It's still singling out a portion of the society and thinking it is OK to make fun of them. If we as a society are going to strive for equality and fairness for all, that includes hair colour.

Do you think it is fair to make fun of someones physical characteristics?

 

[Whitewolfct]

Not entirely - they probably also do it because they enjoy and indulge in the goth culture. As an ex-goth myself, that's certainly why I and every other one I knew used to do so.

As for cosplayers, I generally assume not that they're socially awkward. I do assume that they're geeks, and therefore they might be happy to discuss the series they're representing (in the rare case it's one that I watch) or possibly interested in other 'geeky' things like roleplaying or gaming in general. At the very least I'll usually assume that they're interested in socialising with other geeks.

Stereotypes aren't always negative things, and yes, by partaking in a culture you are associating yourself with the stereotype. For example I'm a LARPer, a roleplay, and have long hair and a beard. That does tend to lead people making certain assumptions about me - assumptions which are generally accurate, as looking this way is a choice.

 

[elenihefaistos]

Language, and jokes, affects lines of thought. I thought that everyone knew that by now? No matter how much you may think it's just a harmless joke, it is actually shaping the way that you think as you say it - reinforcing certain ideas.

 

[GayPride]

This started, though, with the suggestion (not from you but from others) that if someone dresses in hip-hop clothes, they're essentially asking to be prejudged as a criminal. It's partly their fault that others are suspicious of them. My feeling is that when someone chooses to dress a certain way, they may be choosing to associate with a certain "scene" in the "I like certain music and certain dance clubs" sense, but they're most definitely not asking to associate with the negative stereotypes of that scene.

Someone doing cosplay may be "asking" to have you strike up a conversation about Battlestar Galactica, but they're not "asking" to be taunted about eating cheetos in their parents' basement. Someone wearing a hoodie may be "asking" for you to strike up a conversation about what they think of Kanye West's new album, but they're not "asking" to be perceived as a potential burglar.

PS--I also used to be seriously into the goth scene, and I still listen to a good amount of darkwave and EBM.

 

[SphinC]

I can "somewhat agree". But that said, "asking for it" is still knowing about how you are projecting.

If I go walking in a area with hunters, I will not wear a yeti suit. I would wear "the required attire" to keep me out of harms way. No matter if I think the "yeti suit is cool" (Of course, speaking from a person in adult stage and not of youthful exuberance)

The environment one chooses to project, has more of the outcome

One chooses this projection from influences and has a reality of consequence from this projection

As I said before, there are certain "levels of truth" behind stereotype, therefore the "good" seems to suffer for the "bad"

We are all guilty of any slight negative thought upon what another is projecting, when it is apart what we deem for ourselves, as the norm.

As humans, we have these thoughts based upon how we, ourselves, look, feel, and project.

Simply, if someone is not projecting similar to ourselves, there is a degree of scrutiny

 

[cjacoryp]

We're not talking about wearing fur where people are hunting. That's asking for trouble. We're talking about hooded sweatshirts while walking down the street. You know, those popular, comfortable garments that everyone from Mark Zuckerberg to the Queen of England wear?





Nobody thinks wearing a hoodie is "asking for trouble" unless we happen to be talking about young black men.

 

[EricaK]

Mostly true - however it must be said that ingrained into our brains is the idea that people are more suspicious if they're hiding their faces. Hoodies during the day I've no problem with - at night, with their hood up so I can't see their face and following me I'll admit to feeling somewhat nervous.

But that's only with the hood up, when dark, and when there's not a sensible reason to be wearing a hood. I don't like hidden faces, we read so much from someone's expression that it always feels like a deliberate deception to me.

That isn't exclusive to hoodies either. I have difficulty interacting with anyone who's hidden their face.