littlemisssmartypants
New member
Do I really have to go through a long list and take up so much time to counter every single thing that you have just posted? Really?
Abortion is Wrong
- Thread starter aslan
- Start date
tonymini145
New member
I'll have to do that later on. I actually have a pregnant Wife with a child we're not aborting so I would rather spend time with her right now.
You don't have kids, do you? Because even when they're in the crawling stage, they are curious, filled with wonder. Happy. Sad, and everything else.
As for comprehension: my wife and I taught our daughters sign language when they were babies, starting from 6 months old. Before their first birthday, they could communicate with us the following concepts: hunger, thirst, tired, washing, diaper, more, come, fish, don't touch, and a handful of others. I think by age one they could understand and use a dozen.
Just because they have no long term memory yet, and no control over their vocal chords and motor skills does not mean there is no intelligence, emotion or identity behind those eyes.
As for comprehension: my wife and I taught our daughters sign language when they were babies, starting from 6 months old. Before their first birthday, they could communicate with us the following concepts: hunger, thirst, tired, washing, diaper, more, come, fish, don't touch, and a handful of others. I think by age one they could understand and use a dozen.
Just because they have no long term memory yet, and no control over their vocal chords and motor skills does not mean there is no intelligence, emotion or identity behind those eyes.
agreed.
I disagree with this. I was hit, and I was a difficult, high maintenence child. It didnt help me at all. It just made me worse. I even hated and feared my parents when I was growing up. I treated them like crap because of it. I never respected them, I hated and feared them. I just did whatever i wanted when I wanted. I became a decent person in spite of it, not because of it. Mind you, I never got a smack on the bottom. I got whipped. With heavy belts made of leather. Even so, I dont condone hitting. Why can kids be hit but adults are protected from it?
I disagree with this. I was hit, and I was a difficult, high maintenence child. It didnt help me at all. It just made me worse. I even hated and feared my parents when I was growing up. I treated them like crap because of it. I never respected them, I hated and feared them. I just did whatever i wanted when I wanted. I became a decent person in spite of it, not because of it. Mind you, I never got a smack on the bottom. I got whipped. With heavy belts made of leather. Even so, I dont condone hitting. Why can kids be hit but adults are protected from it?
Spanked in my view and the way I grew up was as a last resort. It wasn't some punishment for every little thing I did. If I did something wrong, my Father told me that it was wrong, explained why and then I didn't do it anymore. My parents divorced when I was 7 and I went through a lot with the 2 of them that I don't care to get into, but despite that... my Father still made it clear to me that he wasn't going to spank me for things he didn't see. He made it quite clear to my Mother that I was only to be spanked on the bottom, but warned her that if she hit me in the face, she would be hit in the face. The few times she smacked me my Father confronted her and though he never hit her, she did fear him and knew her limits with me.
The rule my Father had was simple, don't hit your sister or your mother EVER or you will be spanked, there would be no questions about it. The last time I actually hit my sister I was 12 and I was spanked for it even then. However, my Father never hit me hard and never was abusive in any way. He always explained to me that he didn't want to spank me, but that if he didn't that reprocussions later in life would be much more severe. Pride has to be broken in a child, you cannot spank them out of anger either. My Father was and is a very emotional man and would cry everytime he had to spank me, but it didn't stop him because he knew that for his own children it was the right thing. I, unlike yourself never hated my Father. He was and is my best friend and i'd do anything for him.
I think some things work with kids. However, spanking needs to be used in severe cases because if your child does not suffer the embarrassment and sting of that, he will suffer getting beat up, arrested, or hurt some other way because of lack of respect for authority.
That's how I was raised, my son will be raised in the very same way. Some don't agree, that's fine. I don't agree that timeouts are the answer in every case for everything.
The rule my Father had was simple, don't hit your sister or your mother EVER or you will be spanked, there would be no questions about it. The last time I actually hit my sister I was 12 and I was spanked for it even then. However, my Father never hit me hard and never was abusive in any way. He always explained to me that he didn't want to spank me, but that if he didn't that reprocussions later in life would be much more severe. Pride has to be broken in a child, you cannot spank them out of anger either. My Father was and is a very emotional man and would cry everytime he had to spank me, but it didn't stop him because he knew that for his own children it was the right thing. I, unlike yourself never hated my Father. He was and is my best friend and i'd do anything for him.
I think some things work with kids. However, spanking needs to be used in severe cases because if your child does not suffer the embarrassment and sting of that, he will suffer getting beat up, arrested, or hurt some other way because of lack of respect for authority.
That's how I was raised, my son will be raised in the very same way. Some don't agree, that's fine. I don't agree that timeouts are the answer in every case for everything.
killerqueen
Member
First off on your post... no you didn't mind posting Biblical quotes. You did a quick search of what typical non believers do which is search out and twist.
Secondly, you make the mistake of assuming that God is a human being. He (to myself and other believers) is the creator of ALL life. God can do whatever He chooses. If he chooses to take a person or a child... He can, and it's up to Him because He is the end and the beginning. It is not a persons choice to take the life of a child that has been conceived because it's an incovenience to 2 irresponsible parents.
I did a search for you and found a good message that talks about some of your questions when it comes to God and abortion. As a non believer yourself I expect you to pick and choose what parts suit your argument. I don't need to because that is the God that I follow and that I believe in no matter what.
"Hosea was a prophet who lived during the time of the split monarchies of Israel and Judah. His life and prophecy was in the northern kingdom of Israel circa 785-725 BCE, just before Israel was conquered by the Assyrians.
During Hosea's life, the kingdom of Israel had completely rebelled against God. Since the time of King Jeroboam I (reigned circa 931-910 BCE), the people had turned to worshipping Baal and other idols, in direct disobedience to God's coofftopicndment (1 Kings 12:26-33, 13:33-34, 16:25-33, 22:52-53; 2 Kings 13:2-6, 17). In response, God first sent prophets such as Hosea to warn them to repent or perish, but they would not listen. As a result, the northern kingdom of Israel was destroyed, and the people that remained were exiled into Assyria (2 Kings chapter 17).
This is yet another example of destruction that came about because the people disregarded God's coofftopicnd against idolatry (see Exodus 20:3-6, 23; 23:13, 23-24; 34:17; Leviticus 19:4; 26:1; Deuteronomy 4:15-28; 5:7; 6:14-15; 8:19; 12:31; 17:2-7; 27:15; 29:17-18). Idolatry is a very serious sin, one that God does not take lightly. Since the Israelites had abandoned God and trusted in supposed gods of fertility (such as Baal and Asherah) to protect them, God withdrew his protection from them, and their fertility as well.
It is important to note here that all life was created by, and belongs to, God. He controls whether or not a person has children (Genesis 20:17-18, 25:21, 29:31, 30:22; Ruth 4:13; 1 Samuel 1:5). Children are a blessing from God (Psalm 127:3). God had warned the Israelites that if they broke their covenant with him, disobeyed his coofftopicndments and showed him contempt by worshipping idols, he would withhold blessings from them, including the blessing of children: "You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God" (Deuteronomy 28:62, NIV).
We come now to the verse describing God taking the lives of Israelite children. As in previous passages, this is a difficult issue. There are a few things that we need to take into consideration. First, God gave the people ample warning over many years to avoid destruction. If they had repented, God would not have withdrawn his protection and allowed them to be overtaken by the Assyrians (Jeremiah 18:7-8, Jonah chapter 3). Second, one of the reasons that God would have withheld children from being born during this time period was due to the widespread killing and destruction that occurred during the siege of Samaria (2 Kings 17; Hosea 13:16). Finally, if the children had lived to adulthood, they most likely would have followed the idol-worshipping practices of their parents, and would have been lost for eternity. God took their lives in childhood to prevent this from occurring.
Passages such as this one are horrifying, and cause for sober reflection. God's coofftopicnds are not to be treated flippantly or disregarded. He does not want anyone to perish, and he takes no pleasure in the death of anyone (Ezekiel 18:32). However, there comes a time when his patience runs out and he abandons those who have rejected him to their fate. The conquest of Israel by Assyria was such a time."
http://antievilbible.blogspot.com/2012/11/punishment-for-israel-hosea-9.html
What people should probably be more concerned with is that God doesn't care what you think of Him. He would like you to love Him and want to spend eternity with Him, but leaves that free will there so plenty of people can make fools of themselves or somehow think they can outsmart Him.
Secondly, you make the mistake of assuming that God is a human being. He (to myself and other believers) is the creator of ALL life. God can do whatever He chooses. If he chooses to take a person or a child... He can, and it's up to Him because He is the end and the beginning. It is not a persons choice to take the life of a child that has been conceived because it's an incovenience to 2 irresponsible parents.
I did a search for you and found a good message that talks about some of your questions when it comes to God and abortion. As a non believer yourself I expect you to pick and choose what parts suit your argument. I don't need to because that is the God that I follow and that I believe in no matter what.
"Hosea was a prophet who lived during the time of the split monarchies of Israel and Judah. His life and prophecy was in the northern kingdom of Israel circa 785-725 BCE, just before Israel was conquered by the Assyrians.
During Hosea's life, the kingdom of Israel had completely rebelled against God. Since the time of King Jeroboam I (reigned circa 931-910 BCE), the people had turned to worshipping Baal and other idols, in direct disobedience to God's coofftopicndment (1 Kings 12:26-33, 13:33-34, 16:25-33, 22:52-53; 2 Kings 13:2-6, 17). In response, God first sent prophets such as Hosea to warn them to repent or perish, but they would not listen. As a result, the northern kingdom of Israel was destroyed, and the people that remained were exiled into Assyria (2 Kings chapter 17).
This is yet another example of destruction that came about because the people disregarded God's coofftopicnd against idolatry (see Exodus 20:3-6, 23; 23:13, 23-24; 34:17; Leviticus 19:4; 26:1; Deuteronomy 4:15-28; 5:7; 6:14-15; 8:19; 12:31; 17:2-7; 27:15; 29:17-18). Idolatry is a very serious sin, one that God does not take lightly. Since the Israelites had abandoned God and trusted in supposed gods of fertility (such as Baal and Asherah) to protect them, God withdrew his protection from them, and their fertility as well.
It is important to note here that all life was created by, and belongs to, God. He controls whether or not a person has children (Genesis 20:17-18, 25:21, 29:31, 30:22; Ruth 4:13; 1 Samuel 1:5). Children are a blessing from God (Psalm 127:3). God had warned the Israelites that if they broke their covenant with him, disobeyed his coofftopicndments and showed him contempt by worshipping idols, he would withhold blessings from them, including the blessing of children: "You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God" (Deuteronomy 28:62, NIV).
We come now to the verse describing God taking the lives of Israelite children. As in previous passages, this is a difficult issue. There are a few things that we need to take into consideration. First, God gave the people ample warning over many years to avoid destruction. If they had repented, God would not have withdrawn his protection and allowed them to be overtaken by the Assyrians (Jeremiah 18:7-8, Jonah chapter 3). Second, one of the reasons that God would have withheld children from being born during this time period was due to the widespread killing and destruction that occurred during the siege of Samaria (2 Kings 17; Hosea 13:16). Finally, if the children had lived to adulthood, they most likely would have followed the idol-worshipping practices of their parents, and would have been lost for eternity. God took their lives in childhood to prevent this from occurring.
Passages such as this one are horrifying, and cause for sober reflection. God's coofftopicnds are not to be treated flippantly or disregarded. He does not want anyone to perish, and he takes no pleasure in the death of anyone (Ezekiel 18:32). However, there comes a time when his patience runs out and he abandons those who have rejected him to their fate. The conquest of Israel by Assyria was such a time."
http://antievilbible.blogspot.com/2012/11/punishment-for-israel-hosea-9.html
What people should probably be more concerned with is that God doesn't care what you think of Him. He would like you to love Him and want to spend eternity with Him, but leaves that free will there so plenty of people can make fools of themselves or somehow think they can outsmart Him.
maryebrioles
New member
I will not have any more discussions about religion on the forums. If you want to know about my beliefs and you want to be civil and ask just because you would like to know then that's fine. I will continue my MA discussions and leave you all with this site. Dismiss it if you must, but at least think about it. I will pray for you all either way though. http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/Rawlings/Dr_Rawlings_Near_Death_Experiences.htm
dragonlfoot
New member
Dunno. Why can near term babies be killed but are adults protected from it?
I believe life begins at conception. I believe the mothers does not have the right to "choose" to kill.
The life of the mother,etc excuses are weak. That's a rare reason for abortion. It usually comes down to convenience. I'm ashamed of how recklessly we kill preborn babies.
"I notice that all those in favor of abortion have already been born." Ronald Reagan
The life of the mother,etc excuses are weak. That's a rare reason for abortion. It usually comes down to convenience. I'm ashamed of how recklessly we kill preborn babies.
"I notice that all those in favor of abortion have already been born." Ronald Reagan
nataliaeqarcia
New member
If a foetus ever wants to chime in with their views then I'm all ears.
ThatGuyBrenda
New member
Ronald didn't have any problems sending troops to kill post born people.
Valar morghulis.
Besides I have a problem with any argument that begins with 'I believe'. It usually means the speaker is not open to any opinion other than his own.
Valar morghulis.
Besides I have a problem with any argument that begins with 'I believe'. It usually means the speaker is not open to any opinion other than his own.
Does it? Out of interest what stage of pregnancy are you talking about?
I was trying to point out that Rogan's quote was stupid, because it was. Of course the only people debating abortion are people that have been born, the unborn tend to have a bit of a problem with speech. Its a dumb point. Its like saying only the living get to debate what we do with corpses.
edit: Also SIB I know you don't want to discuss religion anymore, which is fine I'm cool with you not replying to this, but I feel a need to poit out that this
is tyrannical as hell. There are people literally fighting wars to get away from people with a belief they have that sort of power. I can't quite fathom the idea of spending your life in devotion to someone you believe has the, well, god given right to kill whoever he/she/it pleases at will and without question because, hey, its G to the D and that's how he rolls.
As a random point, I was going to make a stupid comment about how that belief gives me a few new ideas on why Lucifer might of been cast out of heaven. I quickly wiki'd it and quite a few of the different possible reasons given in various bits and pieces do seem to be around the idea that Satan challenged God's idea of ultimate control over humanity. All these years I've been told the Devil's bad and it turns out maybe he was a cool dude and simply a victim of propoganda. Poor fellow.
I was trying to point out that Rogan's quote was stupid, because it was. Of course the only people debating abortion are people that have been born, the unborn tend to have a bit of a problem with speech. Its a dumb point. Its like saying only the living get to debate what we do with corpses.
edit: Also SIB I know you don't want to discuss religion anymore, which is fine I'm cool with you not replying to this, but I feel a need to poit out that this
is tyrannical as hell. There are people literally fighting wars to get away from people with a belief they have that sort of power. I can't quite fathom the idea of spending your life in devotion to someone you believe has the, well, god given right to kill whoever he/she/it pleases at will and without question because, hey, its G to the D and that's how he rolls.
As a random point, I was going to make a stupid comment about how that belief gives me a few new ideas on why Lucifer might of been cast out of heaven. I quickly wiki'd it and quite a few of the different possible reasons given in various bits and pieces do seem to be around the idea that Satan challenged God's idea of ultimate control over humanity. All these years I've been told the Devil's bad and it turns out maybe he was a cool dude and simply a victim of propoganda. Poor fellow.
And yet you quote someone who sent troops to kill. Aren't you picking up on the irony there?
Also, I try not to have black or white beliefs. Most things tend to be shades of grey. It's all a matter of perspective.
As for you feeling very bad for me, well, it's none of my business what other people think of me.
Also, I try not to have black or white beliefs. Most things tend to be shades of grey. It's all a matter of perspective.
As for you feeling very bad for me, well, it's none of my business what other people think of me.
dyyylllaannn
Member
Comprehension might have been the wrong word. I don't doubt young babies have some form of emotion or intelligence, but I do doubt its as developed as an older persons. Not that its that relevant since I'm not arguing the death of young babies is a good thing. What I'm saying is I don't deem it to be more tragic than the death of an older person as often seems to be the case for most people.
Bayumnnthatshot
New member
All of that has been done at one point or another. How do you feel about the death penalty or euthanasia?