Calling All Pagan Martial Artists

[Richard_SM]

Way Kewl!!! I'm Teutonic myself. I'll read on.

 

[Sharoof]

Ok ok I will get real now . As some of you may have noticed in my first post I talked a little about what a pagan really is . The most commonly accepted defination is "non-christian" or polytheistic . So when you look at the Religious Background of Martial Arts you quickly see it is nothing but a bunch FREAKING UNCIVILIZED HEATHENS !! There isnt a traditional CHRISTIAN martial art ANYWHERE !! Which makes sense because the christian religion is a tool to make the masses meager , weak, and completely dependant on the rulers of the country for protection and the religious leaders to tell them how to connect to God.While most traditional martial arts are based in self improvement ( mind and body ) to be the most you can be to always striving to improve yourself inside and out to be one with , more like, or closer to Divinity , Unity , or Nothing/Everything .

The metaphysical and mystical worlds have always been closely tied to martial arts . When one begans to understand what one is capable of one tends to learn who one is . Which should bring along a little self acceptance which should lead to a little enlightenment .

But alas those days are over for most martial artists ... You cant run a MCdojo and keep the christians off your yard with their burning crosses and steady drum beats of intolerance ringing off the Good Book, because you teach Pagan beliefs or ask people to bow to a flag or symbol . So Most Dojo's/Dojangs gyms , clubs , ect have lost the core principles that make a martial artist more than a gymnast with some kicks and boxing skills ... atleast in most of america's schools .

Does anyone else see this as an issue ?

But now that is off my chest any comments and as I stated before Mods if needs be Burn my posts because I am not trying to start a flame war .

 

[XBronze]

Actually, you're quite right.

OK I love that statement.
I am so going to rember that.QUOTE]



Simply because I state an initiation does not mean that I am blatantly stating BS. BTW, I'm not just learning this from books, nor do I consider it a game at all.

Is that good enough??? Now, let me ask you, why does such a simple statement as mine rouse up so much contempt???

Truthfully, part of the reason I even post these things is to see the reaction of people. Unfortunately, those reactions are negative most of the time.

 

[antswife]

takenhttp://www.answers.org/Issues/Halloween.html



Although marked a special day to honor believers of the past, there was no consistency in the dating of All Saints Day until Christianity began to flourish in northern Europe and the British Isles. There Christians found well-entrenched pagan harvest/winter festivals. One of the best known was called Samhain. They determined that All Saints Day should be celebrated at the same time to directly challenge the sentiments of pagan festivals of the season, including Samhain.


taken from.......http://www.neopagan.net/Halloween-Origins.html

also check
http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/OM/BA/GSF.html
http://bobsled.winternet.com/~kaysha/hllwartl.html http://www.mainstreetpublishing.com/ancient_origins_of_halloween.htm



There appear to have been four major holy days celebrated by the Paleopagan Druids, possibly throughout the Celtic territories: Samhain, Oimelc, Beltane & Lughnasadh (in one set of Irish-based modern spellings). Four additional holy (or “High”) days (Winter Solstice or “Midwinter,” Spring Equinox, Summer Solstice or “Midsummer,” and Fall Equinox), which are based on Germanic or other Indo-European cultures, are also celebrated in the Neopagan Druid calendar, along with others based on mainstream holidays (visit the linked essay for details).

The most common practice for the calculation of Samhain, Oimelc, Beltane and Lughnasadh has been, for the last several centuries, to use the civil calendar days or eves of November 1st, February 1st, May 1st and August 1st, respectively. Since we have conflicting evidence on how the Paleopagan Druids calculated these dates, modern Neopagans just use whichever method is most convenient. This means, of course, that we aren’t all doing anything uniformly on any given night, which fits perfectly with the Neopagan saying that, “organizing Pagans is like herding cats.” It doesn’t match the Evil Conspiracy theories — which have us all marching to a strict drumbeat in perfect Satanic unison — at all.

These four major holy days have been referred to as “fire festivals” for at least the last hundred years or so, because (1) to the ancient Celts, as with all the Indo-European Paleopagans, fire was a physical symbol of divinity, holiness, truth, and beauty; (2) fires play important roles in the traditional customs associated with these festivals; and (3) several early Celtic scholars called them that. Whether in Ireland or India, among the Germans or the Hittites, sacred fires were apparently kindled by the Indo-European Paleopagans on every important religious occasion. To this very day, among Eastern Orthodox and Western Catholics, you can’t have a satisfying ritual without a few candles being lit — of course, the Fundamentalists consider them Heathen too!

Samhain or “Samhuinn” is pronounced “sow-” (as in female pig) “-en” (with the neutral vowel sound) — not “Sam Hain” — because “mh” in the middle of an Irish word is a “w” sound (don’t ask me why, it’s just Irish). Known in Modern Irish as Lل Samhna, in Welsh as Nos Galen-Gaeaf (that is, the “Night of the Winter Calends”), and in Manx as Laa Houney (Hollantide Day), Sauin or Souney, Samhain is often said to have been the most important of the fire festivals, because (according to most Celtic scholars) it may have marked the Celtic New Year. At the least, Samhain was equal in importance to Beltane and shared many symbolic characteristics. Samhain was the original festival that the Western Christian calendar moved its “All Saints’ Day” to (Eastern Christians continue to celebrate All Saints’ Day in the spring, as the Roman Christians had originally). Since the Celts, like many cultures, started every day at sunset of the night before, Samhain became the “evening” of “All Hallows” (“hallowed” = “holy” = “saint”) which was eventually contracted into “Hallow-e’en” or the modern “Halloween.”

Whether it was the Celtic New Year or not, Samhain was the beginning of the Winter or Dark Half of the Year (the seasons of Geimredh=Winter and Earrach=Spring) as Beltane was the beginning of the Summer or Light Half of the Year (the seasons of Samradh=Summer and Foghamhar=Fall). The day before Samhain is the last day of summer (or the old year) and the day after Samhain is the first day of winter (or of the new year). Being “between” seasons or years, Samhain was (and is) considered a very magical time, when the dead walk among the living and the veils between past, present and future may be lifted in prophecy and divination.

Many important mythological events are said to have occured on that day. It was on a Samhain that the Nemedians captured the terrible Tower of Glass built by the evil Formorians; that the Tuatha De Danann later defeated the Formors once and for all; and that many other events of a dramatic or prophetic nature in Celtic myth happened. Many of these events had to do with the temporary victory of the forces of darkness over those of light, signaling the beginning of the cold and dark half of the year.

There is some evidence to indicate that three days were spent celebrating this festival. Philip Carr-Gomm, Chosen Chief of the Order of Bards, Ovates and Druids, speaking of both Paleopagan and Mesopagan Druids in England, had this to say about it in his Elements of the Druid Tradition:

Samhuinn, from 31 October to 2 November was a time of no-time. Celtic society, like all early societies, was highly structured and organised, everyone knew their place. But to allow that order to be psychologically comfortable, the Celts knew that there had to be a time when order and structure were abolished, when chaos could reign. And Samhuinn, was such a time. Time was abolished for the three days of this festival and people did crazy things, men dressed as women and women as men. [This happened at Beltane too — IB] Farmers’ gates were unhinged and left in ditches, peoples’ horses were moved to different fields, and children would knock on neighbours’ doors for food and treats in a way that we still find today, in a watered-down way, in the custom of trick-or-treating on Hallowe’en.

But behind this apparent lunacy, lay a deeper meaning. The Druids knew that these three days had a special quality about them. The veil between this world and the World of the Ancestors was drawn aside on these nights, and for those who were prepared, journeys could be made in safety to the ’other side’. The Druid rites, therefore, were concerned with making contact with the spirits of the departed, who were seen as sources of guidance and inspiration rather than as sources of dread. The dark moon, the time when no moon can be seen in the sky, was the phase of the moon which ruled this time, because it represents a time in which our mortal sight needs to be obscured in order for us to see into the other worlds.

The dead are honoured and feasted, not as the dead, but as the living spirits of loved ones and of guardians who hold the root-wisdom of the tribe. With the coming of Christianity, this festival was turned into Hallowe’en (31 October), All Hallows [All Saints Day] (1 November), and All Souls Day (2 November). Here we can see most clearly the way in which Christianity built on the Pagan foundations it found rooted in these isles. Not only does the purpose of the festival match with the earlier one, but even the unusual length of the festival is the same.

The Christian Church was unable to get the people to stop celebrating this holiday, so they simply sprinkled a little holy water on it and gave it new names, as they did with other Paleopagan holidays and customs. This was a form of calendrical imperialism, co-opting Paleopagan sacred times, as they had Paleopagan sacred places (most if not all of the great cathedrals of Europe were built on top of earlier Paleopagan shrines and sacred groves). So when Fundamentalists come to your local school board and try to get Halloween removed from the public schools because “it’s a Pagan holiday,” they are perfectly correct. Of course, Valentine’s Day/Lupercalia, Easter/Eostre, and Christmas/Yule also have many Paleopagan elements associated with their dating and/or symbols, as the Jehovah’s Witnesses and others have pointed out for decades. So if we decide to rid the public schools of all holidays that have Pagan aspects to them, there won’t be many left for the kids to enjoy.




also go here for like 50 some odd sites on this

http://www.darklinks.com/dhauntmyth.html






But aside from that, I don't feel ma afects my belief system.

 

[Thallasa35]

This has all the hall marks of degenerating rapidly. The original question was how "neo-pagans" relate to MA.

Just like every other religion on the planet, there are a number of different paths identified under the umbrella of "paganism". Much of the philosophical aspects of MA can relate to paganism and vice versa.

Personally, my studies have taken me through witchcraft, Taoism, Thelema. All relate.

 

[RickJones]

Thank you very much. . . . . Samhain has been ignored so much as of late.

It's all the Church's fault, whether you like to hear it or not (nothing against Christians, tis just you guys tried to pummel Paganism to death).

Another thing - about the pronunciation of "Samhain" and the spelling of it. Actually (as general as I can put it), it was the English's fault. They thought of the Irish as degenerates and lacked any proper graofftopictical knowledge, therefore the English (for some odd reason) tried to make LOTs of words over-spelled and over-complex, than what they should have been.

Samhain is a good example.

Again, believe what you will. We can only tell you things. . . .

Anyways, what are your thoughts on Magick and its relations to MA??? Chi is the most obvious one, of course. . . . . . .

 

[SkurtO]

I think, that ma and most religions' mesh well, as long as your not overly pacifist there shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Spikey]

Actually in many og the German Fechter Bucher There are p plenty of refernces to making your self a better servant of God..... Im too lazy to back u to my room to get one of my books but Im sure someon less lazy will post some of the verses if not...Ill post some latter tonight after I get home from aikido.
OMG ITS A HEATHAN ART...I am so going to burn in hell....but knew that already.


nd I jsut love how most "christian" holidays were taken from Pagan Feasts.

 

[xtx]

I have to disagree, there are alot of very strong willed, intelligent christians far from week, and lot's of them that still go by, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.
And there are alot of christians that feel very comefortable, without the church, just following there god.
I don't think that's the intent of the church or the religion in general. if thats the end result of some people, then I would bet they would be that way no matter what they believed.
I think thats just way to generalized, in much the same way people do to pagans.

 

[LathonW]

I concur with blind and I find it offensive that you felt that Christianity is a relgion based on dominatng the minds and will of the ignorant masses.
Mostly cuz people really AREN'T that stupid, mostly.

Oh and here a verse translated from Medieval german from Johannes Liechtenauer's merkverse or traing verses.

Young knight learn, to love God and Revere women, so that your honor grows. Pratice knighthood and the Art that Digifies you, bringing you honor in wars.

This is found, among other places, in Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship trans lated and interpeted by Crhistian Henry Tobler

 

[ThankYouVeryMuch]

You both should very well know that I was making broad general statements . No not all christians are the same and not all organized churchs are bad either. I grew up in a great Methodist Church with a wonderful youth group . As a support group and social activities and cominuty work alot of churchs and groups have it going on .

I am sorry but I believe christianity" in general " does not drive people to be better people most people believe that Jesus has already for your ticket to heaven all you have to do is reach out and accept him into your heart as Your Savior, Lord and Shepherd ... one of the resons why I left the faith

What I was pointing out is that ALL oriental martial arts have Pagan roots so there should be info being shared . BUT I SEE THAT ITS NOT HAPPENING ... So maybe there is a flaw somewhere with neopaganism tranfering over into Martial Arts ... Maybe traditional teaching of ...

oh never mind you guys take this thread where you want

Peace and Be Well ..
Back Fist Monkey


P.S. Message me for real conversation on this topic ... its fun and I have lots of observations tucked away * shrugs * Yahoo IM on request .. .

 

[imrdy111]

Yes, I do know you were makeing "broad general statement's" and like I said, those kinds of statements, are the same we pagans recieve, and they can leave lots of folks with a bad taste in there mouths.
It's nothing more than stereotyping, I don't agree with lot's of there teachings', but I don't find them week or taught to be week.
I think it's really the opposite, to resist the "devil" and "sin" and die for there faith if necessary, not a easy thing to do.
Go debate a christian, they will fight you tooth and nail over there faith.
Most pagans will do the same, there is also alot of pagans that will just blow it off becouse, they don't care what you think same goes for christians'.
It all boils down to the person, not the faith.

And as for teaching them to be better people, that is what there faith is all about.

 

[mwi1112000]

I so glad so many people came to defence of Christianity. But I think the point has been made and we can move on.

 

[olutia]

Don't make broad statements as though they are facts that you believe, suprisingly enough when you do this people occasionally take you literally. If I were to say all under-18s should be locked away until they're 25 without giving exceptions I don't feel I'd have any defense against someone who attacked the statement as being obnoxious and generalising. People aren't mind readers, say what you mean, don't just assume people will read hidden meanings.

Well lets see, I'm no longer Christian but from what I remember the two most important teachings of Christ were 'love the lord your God' and 'love your neighbour'. In fact if you take these two then any of the other coofftopicndments are unnecessary.

If someone studies a martial art and they're taught a philosophy of non-violence and tolerance, but then they walk out and start a fight, are you going to say that in general martial artists are violent and so martial arts must teach violent? That's basically what you're doing here.

And here you go making broad and ignorant statements again. There are plenty of oriental arts that have secular or philosophical roots rather than specifically pagan.

 

[SmileItsNotThatSerious]

Just to clarify where the word Pagan came from....

In early pictish, gaelic i.e. older languages of the UK/Europe, 'Pagan' simply meant villager, the Catholic church at the time had no hold/in roads into these communites and their 'Pagan' ways simply because of geography and the historical religions of the regions revolving around the worship of the spirits, the divine Goddess and the Sun.
Likewise in Europe/Gall (France) the old word for villager was 'Villaine'. The negative connotations to the words 'Pagan' and what became a word for criminal - 'Villain' came about due to the Catholic propoganda at the time, being mainly in the larger towns and cities.
I make no comment as to opinions, these are the facts as I know them, from the history books I've read.

Good thread though!

 

[snickers281]

Actually, you're quite right.



The reaction is there because you have had the (apparent) arrogance to initiate yourself. This cannot be done -it is like a self-awarded black-belt. Did you have the mandate of a Master? A teacher? or the Gods?

You are only young and full of zeal - that can be commendable. But you are treading a dangerous line of you believe you can mix, match and introduce yourself to the "others" without an invite. When you look into the beyond, the beyond looks back...

 

[inconspiracywithsatan]

That's quite surreal, some one (mis)quoting Friedrich Nietzsche in a discussion about paganism.

 

[Thalia]

It's technically called a paraphrase my friend!

 

[littlesister]

Try to get this back on track guys.

 

[AnimeFan]

I can live with that.