casual abortion

Why should ppl change themselves to fit religion MANewbie ? In fact, do you change yourself to fit the governments rules completley and 100 %. I don't believe you do. And concerning religion being the truth, I think we can debate about that. Because in effect you believing its the "truth" has more importance in this than to know if it is actually truth or not.

And what you see in the going ons in the church's and ppl in it proves my point. Times have changed but the church hasn't. It hasn't adjusted itself to harder workloads, less time to spend with your spouse or child, that both parents might have to work to support the children, etc. So ppl do what they can to fit both in. It also proves that humans are in effect animals and have normal desires, something it seems even the church doesn't agree on. We humans are maofftopicls, we humans have desires and needs...and not a tool of god.

Christian
 
This illustrates the point I was making. I guess we can't prove either side. You say its ok to change religion to fit your own needs, while I say it's not.

The government is different from religion. The president is nothing compared to God, so its a bad analogy i think. The government was made by man and religion made by God (in my belief).
Theres a difference between knowing whats right and trying to follow it, but failing and changing what is right so that you have no need for remorse. I am not perfect and make mistakes, but I don't change the definition of right and wrong. I try to change myself. I may not follow these rules made by the God (I believe) 100%, but I at least know what the rules are and keep them.

Harder workloards? Less time to spend with spouse? What? If anything, there is tons more free time today than in the past. I wouldn't say sitting in class or in front of a computer all day is harder than tilling a field all day. People had to work from dawn till dusk and immediately sleep afterwards. The church says that humans have desires, but says they should control these desires. It doesn't say that these desires don't exist.
Not a tool of God? Stupid "enlightenment." What are you then, and what relation does God have with man?
 
If you eliminated babies due to poverty and irresponsible pregnant women we wouldnt have had Einsten or Mozart or most people, because the majority of people live in poverty. And irresponsible people can grow up because of a baby. ONe post said drug addicts are having kids, so social services can take their baby and give it to somefamily who gives a crap. And everyone has the option of giving the child to a better life.
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If you dont change yourself for religion than you are making your own rules. And churches deal with people in poverty and the lack of time within familys,
I dont know where you get this? No, we dont comply with the government, but when we get caught we get punished or warned. Tickets, jail time, death, fines, exclusions. I think religion, regardless of which one, gives people goals that they didnt have before. Hey, Im not supposta be violent, and I just wanted to knock that guys teeth out for being so stupid. This is what religion does for me because Im a violent person who has found peace believing God will take care of my problems and the proof for me could be an interesting book, but I dont want to brag and God tells us not to rejoice in the downfall of our enemies.
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I agree that you can have a good life being raised by a single parent. And to have to parents who are crappy doesnt mean the kids will have a good life. It takes people giving alot and even when parents give it all theyve got, a kid can be depressed because they dont have the friends or role models in life that they need. Everyone pushing this concept of money makes you happy or your education gets you happiness, when everyone with money has problems and the proof of education not giving happiness is abundant. Most people that go to college are not likely to get a job in the field they studied or even complete college. They disguise the party scene, if you got the ambition to pursue something its a whole new thing.
 
No, if you actually think about it, its not. Both give you rules to follow, both tell you that if you don't follow those rules something happens to you. One is controlled by the President while the other is controlled by the pope. Both have enormous power over your actions. The good thing with religions is, you have a choice, which in my case is, that I don't believe in god so those other rules don't apply to me either.



Sorry to say this MANewbie but here in the UK ppl have alot less time to spend with their spouse than ever before. Most ppl sit in their offices all day until 19:00 pm, then come home to their wife and kids and thats their day gone. So actually they have alot less time.And the comparison you are making has to do with the working class during the 18.th century, not the upper class. The upper class didn't do anything while they had serfs working the fields for them. Even the church had ppl working for them.

And no sorry MANewbie, you might believe you are a "tool" of god but I certainly don't. Why should I want to be a tool for anyone, give my powers to someone else ? And concerning gods relation to man, I think you are better advised to ask this to someone who has more belief in god than I do.

Christian
 
Well, Endeavour, ever heard of condoms, pills and other such contraceptions ? And sorry, its a natural human (call it animalistic) instinct to want sex and procreate. Sorry, if the church wants to prohibit that but its very hard to stop a normal human desire. Unless you want to genetically re-program the whole human race.

Christian
 
I guess it comes back to belief.
I still disagree with you about free time now. I think any expert as well as most people will agree with me that we have more free time now than in the past. The people in the past weren't sitting on couches eating bonbons and talking to their children. They were working hard all day.

As for the tool of God...
I think you will find and have already seen that you don't have complete control over your life. You are kind of talking about man as if man is God and has complete power over himself. You can believe whatever you want though. I'll say again, I blame you stupid "Enlightenment."

Sorry about all this then. Your name was Christian, so I assumed you believed in God. I'm a bit confused now.



As for last post, I'll say again that church says to control these desires, not eliminate them. I think you will find that many people are capable of controlling themselves. When I cant control myself, I call myself weak, because thats what I am. When others can't control themselves, I call them weak, because thats what they are.
 
Just because my Name is Christian doesn't mean I'm a believer MANewbie. I think my parents picked this Name because I was born six days after Christmas. And I did originally grow up in the Christian catholic faith but decided some years back I wanted nothing to do with the church anymore.



Yes, that might be true but we don't need the church for that, do we ? I can control my sexual desires very easily, I don't need the church to warn me I'll go to hell because of sex before marriage to do that. Also, and that is a true fact, more ppl have sex before marriage now than ever before. Its nothing the church can stop. What they should maybe think about is, if marriage is still the right thing to proclaim as good because more ppl get divorced now than ever before as well. My guess is, because of the pressure of having to get married in the first place.

Christian
 
Hmmm. Explain this then. People stop believing in church these days, and now sex before marriage increases and divorces increase. Does this necessarily make marriage bad? I think not. I attribute this to a pseudo-religion where people perform rituals, but don't truly believe and apply their religion to life. The threat of hell must do something to make people control themselves as well, because frankly, although you may be able to control yourself, the majority cant, and need the extra push from religion.
 
Regardless if you dont believe in Jesus Christ, you must still believe in some higher power? Going back to the question on hand. I agree with the point that abortion should not be an easy way out because of an accident. There are many alternatives. Put the baby up for adoption perhaps? Now on the other hand if a woman is raped she should have the choice if she doesnt wish to concieve someones baby she doesnt even know.
 
No, it probably doesn't but it does show that ppl who basically just look for a person to marry will more easily get divorced later on than someone who simply enjoys the time with their partner and doesn't let the pressure of marriage get to him/her. I've seen happier unmarried couples than married ones. And being married isn't a necessary thing either. You can be in love, live together and even have kids without being married. And concerning sex before marriage, tell me what would change in marriages if that wasn't happening ? I can imagine one sad scenario: two ppl get married who think they are compatible then have sex on their marriage night for the first time and discover they aren't. Divorce is pre-programmed in that case.



Threat ! Just think about that word MANewbie. Would you like to live with a threat all your life ? Base your own desires and ambitions around some invisible possibly non-existent being thats threatening you ? Funny, we're all afraid of terrorists threatening our very life and meanwhile we already get threatened to go to hell just by joining a religion.I prefer to know I have control over myself than some other being having control over me.

And by the way concerning your god= man analogy before: Why should their have to be a being above you ? We are already making us the superior creatures on this planet anyways. Would you really want to be controlled by another being then ?

And I meant it in the sense of us being in control of our own actions. We all have morals, we all have a brain and we all can think with logic. So its not necessary to have to listen to something above us.

Christian
 
Give me a reason why I should zenpokaiten ? Just because lots of ppl do I should believe there is a higher power guiding me ? The one thing I do is
believe in myself and my own abilities. I don't need some higher power to show me that I have them or what I can do with them.

This might come over offensive to some but tekkengod on another thread is partly right, believing in a higher power shows a sort of weakness in ppl. Its like an escape from believing in themselves. Things go wrong in your life so you go put this on a higher being. Will that solve your lifes problems ? Maybe..Maybe not.

Christian
 
I think you are looking at a small fraction of marriages. Look at the big picture please. You act like all couples are incompatible and that their marriages immediately end in divorce, and act like all unmarried couples are in utter bliss 24/7.




The "threat of hell" is only one component. Learn about religion and you will see that religion isnt only based on threat of hell. Its based on love of God. Some people choose to follow religion based on love of God and others based on threat of hell. It comes down to the person.

We all have a brain, and can make decisions, but do we always make the right ones? Isn't religion about you making the right decisions? Religion tells you what is right, and you try and follow it. You have the choice to follow it or to not follow it. Choice is not absent in religion.
I find this idea that man is powerful strange. Humans are mortal. If we don't get food or drink for not long, we die. We die from old age. A random accident can kill us. We are so vunerable to diseases. Humans are very weak beings actually.

It has nothing to do with wanting to be controlled by a higher being. You are controlled whether you like it or not. If you are being attacked for example, closing your eyes and denying your attacker's existence will not make him go away.

Wow..way off topic.


When you believe in a higher power it doesnt mean you are weak.
When something goes wrong, you say that God willed it, and try to solve the problem youself. You don't just sit and wait for a solution.
I'm really tired of arguing with an atheist. Its not going anywhere.
 
Who says that the choices given by religions are right ?



NO, actually I'm not MANewbie ! Prove to me at this very moment that god or some higher being is controlling my actions ? Would I be writing to you like this if I was controlled ? Its you who is believing you are controlled by a higher being MANewbie, not me. And by the way, do you think your belief in god will help you if you close your eyes when you are being attacked ? I highly doubt that.

Christian
 
Of course is isn't going anywhere MANewbie. Because you expect me to follow your route which I won't. Its an interesting conversation though. Except for this comment by you.

Christian
 
Sorry for the comment before. Won't happen again.
It all goes back to belief. You can't prove God's existence. Just because you can't prove it though, doesnt mean that God doesn't exist.
You came to the conclusion that God doesn't exist. Different people come to different conclusions. I hope you are happy with yours.
 
I am not saying you should believe in anything at all. You said you didnt believe in God. I assumed you were of another religion. Its good you believe in yourself and your abilities. Some people on the the other hand like to believe that those things came from someone/something.

I am not offended by that statement, but just because people have a belief in a spirit, does not make them weak. Perhaps we like to believe we are all here for a reason? That reason? Thats something we all have to figure out for ourselves.
 
Yes, it does. You can't prove Gods existence either MAnewbie. Yes, I'm happy with my choice. Thanks for asking.

Christian
 
Anyone who give you good advice should be listened to for what it is worth. If its any religion or non-religious advice, if it is good advice you should not shun it just because you dont believe one way or the other. And on the other side of the coin you shouldnt take bad advice from family, friends, tv, or religion just to go with the flow. You weigh advice for what it is worth. If a religion tells you not to steal, you dont say hey you dont tell me what to do, you say, hey good advice from man or from God, good advice either way. If religion tells you to steal or so something foul than weigh that advice as bad advice.
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some unmarried couples are happier, but a happy married couple, now that is something most people DREAM of. The backbone to that happiness isnt just getting married because it is casual, if you dont have deep life long respect for the marriage than you shouldnt get married. The ease of divorse makes people not care if it doesnt work out. The long process of waiting and lonliness and wanting to fit in makes people jump into things. Most people who get married dont respect the vows they make, they are only temporary and conditional and endure for a short time.
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Yes Ive heard of condoms and pills, but they dont ensure you wont get pregnant or an STD. We do have desires, but your morals should tell you, if nature itself doesnt, that you cant just do anyone you want, and the proof is the widespread abortion, criminal charges, stds',and general thoughts of low self esteem.
 
To be honest, I don't know if it makes them weak, even though I've seen weak ppl (in spirit) turn to religion because they saw no other choices. Or wanted to have an easy life. And who says I don't believe I have a reason to be here ? But even if I believe that why does that have to be connected to a higher being ?

Christian
 
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