Is messianic Judaism full Judaism, while being a regular Jew is really only being...

Let me be really clear: “Messianic Jews”, “Jews for Jesus”, etc., are **not** Jewish. Period. They are Christians, many of whom, under false pretenses, aggressively seek to convert Jews and descendants of intermarriage to Christianity in a way that many of us find invasive, disrespectful, and anti-Semitic.

Before I even get to what Jewish law says about these impostors, consider this: not only does every Jewish organization completely reject them as Jewish, but so do a fair number of Christian groups (see links 2-4 below).
If no Jew thinks that you’re Jewish, and even some Christians don’t, then how can you possibly think that you are? And if one thinks that this rejection is a recent phenomenon, think again! Even St. Ignatius, of the 2nd century, felt the same way! In his Epistle to the Magnesians he wrote:

“Never allow yourselves to be led astray by false teachings and antiquated and useless fables. Nothing of any use can be got from them. If we are still living in the practice of Judaism, it is an admission that we have failed to receive the gift of grace…To profess Jesus Christ while continuing to follow Jewish customs ***is an absurdity***…[L]et us learn to live like Christians. To profess any other name but that is to be lost to God…For where there is Christianity there cannot be Judaism.”

And now for what **we** say:

Most Jewish scholars agree that you cannot convert away from Judaism (there are a minority who say you can convert away). However, this by no means implies that a Jew who joins another religion has the same standing as a Jew who has remained Jewish. A Jew who practices another religion, whether it be Christianity (in any of its forms, including Messianic "Judaism"), Islam or anything else, is known as an "apostate." An apostate is someone who has removed themselves from the Jewish people by joining another faith. The apostate cannot be buried in a Jewish cemetery. Nor can the apostate be counted for a minyan, the minimum of ten adult Jews (or adult Jewish men, depending on one's denomination) needed for saying certain prayers. For nearly all practical purposes, they have the same status in the Jewish community as non-Jews. The only difference is that they do not have to undergo a full conversion to rejoin the Jewish community, though there is a process known as "Teshuvah" that they must go through to come back to the Jewish community with full Jewish status.

So, once we delve into Jewish law we see that a Jew who joins another religion, though still Jewish, has ostensibly the status of a non-Jew and is no longer able to participate as a full member of the Jewish community. The apostate has the weakest of all grasps to their Jewish identity, they are Jewish by birth but otherwise have no position in the Jewish community.

This then brings us to a discussion on the difference between "doing Jewish" and "being Jewish." By "doing Jewish", I am referring to someone who is actually practicing Jewish beliefs and laws. By "being Jewish", I mean someone who has been born Jewish. Now, there are many people who are born Jewish but are not practicing Judaism. For instance, if a Jewish person murders a family, the Jewish person may be "born Jewish" but certainly was not "doing Jewish" as murder is a violation of the Ten Commandments.

Similarly, we can see examples of this in the Jewish Bible. The prime example of this would be the Jews who worshipped the Golden Calf at Mount Sinai. These individuals were unquestionably Jewish by their birth, thus we can argue that they were "being Jewish." However, were they "doing Jewish?" The Bible is quite clear that these individuals, though born Jewish, were not practicing Judaism. The worship of the Golden Calf, though it was a monotheistic form of worship, was clearly a violation of the Biblical law regarding the making of idols. Thus, they were not "doing Jewish." Similarly, in the Prophets we see countless reprimands of people who were undeniably Jewish by birth, but had entered into apostasy by worshipping gods such as Baal and Ashtoret. They were not "doing Jewish" but "doing pagan" and had violated the very underpinning of Judaism. That they were "being Jewish" by their birth was clearly not sufficient. One must also "do Jewish" in their actions.

Along the same lines, many of Jesus' original followers were unquestionably born Jewish. However, by adopting non-Jewish beliefs, such as thinking that Jesus was a god (a violation of several places in the Jewish Bible, Numbers 23:19 and Hoshea 11:9 provide a few examples of this), were no longer "doing Jewish." The same is true for individuals in the Messianic movement today. The Messianic movement was created by Christianity, and its beliefs and values reflect Christianity. By practicing Messianic "Judaism", the individual who was "born Jewish" is no longer "doing Jewish." They have removed themselves from the Jewish community by their practice and beliefs. Unfortunately, too few of these individuals have an understanding of the difference between "being Jewish" and "doing Jewish", mistakenly believing that they can both believe in Jesus and still have the same status in Jewish community as before. They not only have lost status, but also have lost the practice of Judaism. As has been pointed out in the Talmud, the emphasis for us is on the action, the "doing Jewish.



This is taken from the reference section of the first link:

1."There is virtual unanimity across all denominations (of Judaism) that Jews for Jesus are not Jewish." (Kaplan, Dana Evan. The Cambridge Companion to American Judaism, Cambridge University Press, Aug 15, 2005, pp. 139-140).
2."For most American Jews, it is acceptable to blend some degree of foreign spiritual elements with Judaism. The one exception is Christianity, which is perceived to be incompatible with any form of Jewishness. Jews for Jesus and other Messianic Jewish groups are thus seen as antithetical to Judaism and are completely rejected by the majority of Jews". (Kaplan, Dana Evan. The Cambridge Companion to American Judaism, Cambridge University Press, Aug 15, 2005, p. 9).
3.Jewish groups:
o"To make the record clear, Jews for Jesus is a Christian missionary organization – period." (last link).
o"Messianic Jewish organizations, such as Jews for Jesus, often refer to their faith as fulfilled Judaism, in that they believe Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophecies. Although Messianic Judaism claims to be Jewish, and many adherents observe Jewish holidays, most Jews regard Messianic Judaism as deceptive at best, fraudulent at worst. They charge that Messianic Judaism is actually Christianity presenting itself as Judaism." (Balmer, Randall. Encyclopedia of Evangelicalism, Baylor University Press, Nov 2004, p. 448).
 
"messianic judaism" is 100% FULL CHRISTIANITY; Judaism is 100% Jewish followign the same laws and Torah that Moshe received on Mt. Sinai.

edit: Poor DSM- so stuck in his Christianity he cannot understand simple statements about Judaism. what he seems incapable of understanding is that the laws Jews follow today are the laws that wer given to Moshe on Mt Sinai. And as I state, I am an Orthodox Jew- why he asks me questions about Reform Judaism, instead of asking a Reform Jew about their beliefs is puzzling. I would ask a Chirstian (be they honest in calling themselves a Chrisatian or trying to hide that affiliation by calling themself a "messianic jew") about Christianity. I would ask a Catholic about Catholicism, a Protestant about their beliefs- I would not ask a Protestant about Catholocism or vice versa.

edit: poor DSM just continues to try and get Jews to engage with him- thinking to try and get legitimacy by claiming that his points have enough merit to need to be refuted. The truth is, that his points are meaningless and just show how he likes to distort things and try to reinterpret Judaism and Jewish practices. Nope- I won't bother refuting his points- why bother with someone who has blocked all the genuine Jews on this site so he can post his diatribes against Judaism without them being disturbed by genuine jewish answers. One would think someone trying to claim to be Jewish would encourage Jewish input- and yet he blocks it, kinda shows that even he admits he is not Jewish but merely a wannabe! LOL
 
Plain & simple!

Jews follow Judaism

Messianic Jews follow Torah & Messiah

Messianic Believers follow Torah & Messiah

Christians follow constantine
 
A person can't really answer this question without defining Judaism. As you know, you are a Jew if:

1. You mother is a Jew
2. You convert.

Arguments against Messianic Jews being Jews.

1. Violation of 1st commandment.
2. No converts allowed. See rule #1

However, you can be called a Jew and not believe the Jewish scriptures are historical events like all Atheist Jews and many Reform Jews. Therefore, the definition of Judaism must include those who believe and follow the scriptures and those who don't.

When Judaism doesn't require a belief in the history of the Jewish scriptures, then the core that makes up the perception of Judaism is destroyed.

Here is why. When the Jewish scriptures cease to be real events:

1. It is impossible to violate any commandment dealing with God.
a. God did not lead Israel out of Egypt
b. God never said any of the commandments.
c. It is impossible to have a god before the God of Israel when the God of Israel doesn't really exist.
d. It is impossible to take a god's name in vain when the God of Israel doesn't really exist.
2. Abraham was a real person....making lineage to a fictitious person meaningless.
3 All claims to God making any covenants with Israel ceases to be logical.
4. All claims that Israel was divinely given becomes absurd.

You will not see the Orthodox Jews validating the idea that scriptural Judaism is both theistic and atheistic for some very intelligent reasons.

So the difficulty in answering your question is that you can be a Jew and believe everything from:

1. Atheism and Theism
2. A belief that the Jewish scriptures record historical events to a belief that Jewish scripture is completely man made.

With these polar opposites beliefs allow people to be called a "Jew," then you need to be more diverse in your question to allow all forms of Judaism to be compared to one another.

When you have those that don't believe the historical events of the scriptures being "full Jews" like many Reform Jews, then the understanding of what makes a Jew a Jew can't use scripture as to make that determination.

Hope this helps

Edit

Allonyoav said: ***Judaism is 100% Jewish followign the same laws and Torah that Moshe received on Mt. Sinai.***

Please clarify your definition of Judaism.

Do you have to believe that

1. Moshe actually received the Torah on Mt Sinai to be called a Jew?

Or

2. Can you believe like Reform Jews who don't believe the Torah and Tanakh actually record historical events and be called Jews.

Please understand the implications before answering.

Ball is in your court.

Edit

Hatikvah JPA said: ***it is an entirely different religion created from the Torah that God gave to the Jews at Mt. Sinai.***

It is good to see that you at least trace our roots to Mt. Sinai every though they go back to creation. Please tell me where we stopped being Jews as

1. the 120 in the upper room who were praying to the God of Israel received the Spirit of God as Joel prophesied on the day of Pentecost were all Jews.

2. The word "Christian" wasn't invented for another 9 chapters, is only used 3 times total, and hardly defines what the word means other than a Jew following the Messiah. One can hardly blame the writers for writing as the Romans demanded any more than the Jewish leaders can be blamed for renaming Solomon's Temple to Herod's Temple.

3. the other descriptions found in Acts can hardly be mistaken for starting a new religion.

Edit

Allonyoav asks: ***why he asks me questions about Reform Judaism, instead of asking a Reform Jew about their beliefs is puzzling.***

Simple, the question was about all of Judaism and he was able to speak for all of Judaism. He already spoke on behalf of Reform Jews in his answer and again when he stated: ***the laws Jews follow today***.

I have merely asked him to give the reasons why he is able to say why Messianic Jews, who

1. Believe and worship the God of Israel
2. Believe and follow the Jewish scriptures
are not Jews.

while being able to include Reform Jews, who

1. Do not believe or worship the God of Israel
2. Do not believe or follow the Jewish scriptures.
as Jews?

Had he simply made comments reflecting Orthodox Judaism instead of all of Judaism, his point would be valid. However, now that he has spoken for all of Judaism, it is important to understand his position on Reform Judaism.

Allonyoav should contain the substance worthy of his lengthy education.

Nadine, would an Orthodox allow the Reform who don't believe Jewish scripture actually occurred.? The question isn't if they both exist. The question is why the ones who don't require the Torah to be actual event to be considered Jewish while those who do worship the God of Israel and the historical nature of the Jewish scriptures not be call Jews and denied conversion.

Mark S ***this by no means implies that a Jew who joins another religion has the same standing as a Jew who has remained Jewish.***

Then most Jewish scholars haven't followed what happened to those that converted to Baal worship. There was no use of the word apostate, no kicking the entire nation of Israel out of Judaism and no record or conversion to get back in. Read 1 Kings' account of Elijah if you don't believe me....and you would need to define Judaism that fits all branches of Judaism when Messianic Judaism became another religion instead of the fulfillment of Joels prophesy.

Please excuse Marcusss. He is a Reform Jew and doesn't get the finer points of Judaism that the Torah describes and continue through the Tanakh.... like having a personal relationship with the God of Israel. And since Reformed Jews don't believe that the Torah records God giving man moral laws, then morality doesn't really exist to the Reform....did you follow that one Marcuss, If not, pray that God would send His Spirit to counsel you on its meaning.
 
No, "Messianic Judaism" is a code word for "Christianity masquerading as Judaism". It is in no way Judaism, not even close. "Messianic Jews" are fundamentalist, evangelical Christa ins who hope to convert Jews into becoming Christians without the Jews knowing about it. It is nothing more than a scam perpetuated by people like DSM and others who will never admit they are really Christians because they feel they can win over souls for Christ if they but keep up the deception, no matter how blatantly obvious it is that they are not Jews. Any Jew who objects to what they are trying to do is told by them that they are not real Jews. DSM is not just a liar (as someone here pointed out), he is a damn liar.

Please excuse DSM--he is suffering from a grand delusion over which he obviously has little control. The only reason he is not in jail right now for committing fraud is that his offense only violates moral, not legal, laws.
 
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