My daughter asked me a question I have no answer for!

AS your opponent reaches for you seize his tight arm with your right and draw it across your body reach over with your left and secure his collar. Enter and throw similar to seoi nage (shoulder throw)

The ukemi is most difficult and dangerous this is why it is excluded from judo competition(and the difficulty securing the grip)

It should also be noted that Jigoro Kano went at great lengths to support and revitalise the study of ancient martial arts including jujutsu.

below Toshishiro Obata Aikijujutsu version
 
It was because of kano that Judo became common, and that more interest was gained to all martial arts, including jujutsu.

I think the previous article mentioned some points about how Toshishiro Obata's Yama arashi was a flawed recreation, it seems that saigo's prefered kaeshi waza (when the yama arashi was blocked) was impossable with Toshishiro Obata's version.
 
im not sure if someone already said this, but they way i see it is that for a long time martial arts were more popular in japan and other asian countries as i think it was seen more as part of their history, so i think that alot of the arts started more basic but then over the years of popularity became more complex just from people experimenting. I personally think that if u take an art like jujitsu and look at it when it was used by samurai or other warriors they wouldnt go for things like pressure points and very precise things because their enemy was in armor and so were they. I think that boxing even though i could see some form of boxing being extremely old it is limited in how much it can evolve because of the rules of boxing that limit the things the fighters can do. I think that wrestling is the same way, i think that it has gotten to evolve like other things but is still limited because of the rules of the sport. So basically i think that just because the asian martial arts have had more time to openly evolve as a combat art where anything goes to win the fight without being limited by rules of a sport. I hope i didnt just repeat someones whole post but i dont want to read the last 5 pages of posts lol
 
The version shown by Obata in the photos can easily use the kaeshe waza tai otoshi. There is also a version where the left hand goes under the elbow allowing kaeshe waza juji nage and other elbow locks.

At a higher level many techniques are techniques of opportunity (not delibarately looked for). Yama Arashi could be one.


regards koyo
 
Kusa posted



OK I'm going to come back to some of these points in a minute, but before i begin I want to tell you something...This discusion is not about me being right and you being wrong, or vice versa.

To be honest I dont know what the answer is to the question "What is a martial art" although I have said that the only true martial art today is the ones used on the battlefields by the modern soldier because this is martial art (The art of war). Many of us today are not practicing this type of warfare training (martial art) Would you for example suggest that someone doing tai chi is preparing for war?

Now I noticed that you chose to ignore my paradoxical argument in post 47, but let me lay it out for you again. I know you keep saying that I am using semantics, but this is not semantics its an argued point. Here it is again...

In reference to your quote where you said that parkour is a martial arts, I asked the question whether ballooning was also a martial art because it had been used in warfare. You failed to comment.

But lets look at some other examples:

Is rock climbing a martial art? After all rock climbing was used by the US rangers to scale point du hoc on June the 6th 1944 whilst under fire.

Is snorkelling a martial art? After all it was used by SBS units to attach limpet mines to ships in harbour during WW2, and was used to test the beaches of Normandy prior to the D Day.

What about codes and ciphers is this a martial art? Codes and ciphers have been used since ancient times to convey messages across battlefields from one general to another.

What about skiing is this a martial art? Italian Alpinii troops, Norwegian resistance and German Alpine troops were skilled in skiing techniques. And the list could go on.

Now if we agree that all these are martial arts because they have been used in warfare at one time or another, the question that follows is... Where does the list stop?

After all one could include almost anything as a martial art based on the premis that because at one time "it" was used in warfare it is therefore a martial art. But clearly if I was to turn up the the local rockclimbing club, horse riding club, scuba,skiing club etc and declared that they were all martial arts I would be met with one or two raised eyebrows.

In other words this statement in the eyes of most people is a nonsense. So where do we draw the line? What is and what is not a martial art?

You claimed that Parkour was a martial art, OK

Would it not be more correct to say that parkour could be used as an add on to a martial art when the situation demanded it, just like how skiing has been borrowed for warfare but is and of its self NOT a martial art?

But clearly if we take a look at the dictionary definition both you (using your example of parkour) and me (Using my example of a 14th century siege cannon and modern warfare) are wrong. Heres the definition...



http://dictionary.reference.com/

Now clearly this cannot be right. I think both of us would agree on that.

After all capoeira is a martial art, as is savate and they are not oriental and of course it does not take in the modern forms of combat ie fighting on a battlefield, and certainly not parkour or firing a siege cannon.

In fact it also states that it is skills without weapons, when you and I know that many martial arts include weapons.

Heres another



http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/martial%20art

But clearly this is not true either, not all martial arts are sports, certainly not the MCMAP that you posted and the clips you PMed me.

finally to finish my first three dictionaries listed on google...



http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=48994&dict=CALD

Again clearly not right, because like the first definition does not take into consideration any art outside of Japan or china or any Non sport forms.

So it seems that even the dictionaries cant get it right.

Continued
 
Continued

So lets me try to make at a better definition based on what you and I have included as martial arts i.e parkour, 14th century field mortars, MCMAP and modern warfare. Here it is

Martial Art: An art that is either being used as a method of warfare or was once historically used for warfare in the past. Or methods borrowed during warfare to help wage war on an enemy that may not now, themselves be considered in and of themselves martial arts.

There I've done it

I've included all the martial arts across the world, both modern and ancient, and included any methods ie skiing, rockclimbing that was once used in warfare at some time, But have stated that in and of them selves are not actually martial arts except when used as part of a method to wage war.

So my example of firing a 14th century siege cannon each morning, which you agreed is a martial art. Fits nicely into this catergory because it was ONCE used in warfare.

As does modern warfare, as you said



It also includes skiing, rockclimbing, abseiling, because they were once used as part of warfare skills.

It also includes Japanese koryu, kendo, aikido, karate, etc

And as you have said



Ok lets say boxing OK

Sceeeeeech (sound of brakes)

Boxing, did you say boxing.

When was boxing ever used in warfare?

Even going back to the time of the Sumerians and the Greeks and Romans boxing was listed as a sport NEVER an art of war.

It began purely as a sport form and even in WW2 it was realised that the techniques of Jujutsu and the package put together by sykes and fairburn were superior to any boxing training.

In fact apart from Milling used by the RMC as a method of toughening up the soldier, which is basically just hitting each other whilst wearing boxing gloves, but not something taught at any skill level.

And just because someone in the forces does boxing as a pastime whilst on base it does not follow that it is therefore a martial art.

Although I would be happy to hear from anyone who can tell me of any times boxing was part of a martial curiculum used specifically for warfare.

So maybe we better include sport forms that look like martial arts but in and of themselves were Never used in warfare into that dictionary definition.

Martial Art: An art that is either being used as a method of warfare or was once historically used for warfare in the past. Or methods borrowed during warfare to help wage war on an enemy that may not now, themselves be considered in and of themselves martial arts. Or anything that looks like a method of warfare that may never have been intended or used for warfare or any forms that use aggresion to defeat an opponent otherwise also known as a sport

Boy that definition just keeps getting bigger by the minute..

Ok Ok I know that last part



Yes I know we could include rugby and american football as these are both sports that use aggresion, and lets not forget



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1089227/Hero-Royal-Marine-saved-130-soldiers-rugby-tackling-suicide-bomber.html

Cool, Rugby is now a martial art, based on the principle of parkour as described by yourself. LOL

As I said at the begiining, I dont know what the answer is to the question "What is a martial art" which is why i asked for your thoughts.

As I also said its not about one of us being right and the other being wrong.

Personally i dont think any dictionary definition provides a good defintion of martial art, but it also seems that we neither can come up with a good one. that is satisfactory.


Garth
 
Koyo Posted



See my one and only youtube clip at 0:30 for a variation of this move (Yama Arashi)

YouTube - Ninjutsu Northampton

Garth
 
I think we will have to agree to disagree about mr Obata's recreated yama arashi. However Mr Obata did have this to say about the his yama arashi

''Yama Arashi is actually a technique in a book that was written and created by Tomita Tsuneo.

It is said that Yama Arashi was created by Tomita Tsuneo, but no one really knows. Since it was written, people think that it is a real technique. However, if it was real, it [would stand to reason that it would have] been passed down.

There were many movies titled "Sugata Sanshiro". In the various versions, they used the Yama Arashi technique [though they only show it in partial view in the more popular version still available commonly.NS].

Sugata Sanshiro's role in the movie was supposed to have been Saigo Shiro. When Saigo Shiro was young, he is said to have learned Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.

From what I have learned over the years, I have come to think that Yama Arashi isn't a Jujutsu technique. I think of it as an Aikijujutsu technique, and it is said that proper ukemi can't be performed [when executed correctly].

Therefore, I basically researched and guessed [from what little evidence could be found] the Yama Arashi technique based from knowledge of Aikijujutsu, and used it in the "Samurai Aikijutsu" book.

The english used in the book says "it must have been done this way", but this may have been a strong choice of words.

Unfortunately nobody can know for a fact - there is not enough believable evidence to say.''
 
Garth - what is a martial art, in my view its one where aspects of fighting are involved, my initial statment about Kali, Sambo and MCMAP, were based upon your point that only skills currently used by soliders are the real deadly martial arts. I for one dont care what any one else terms martial arts, is XMA a martial art? Is Dog brothers style sparring a martial art? Is talking about ninjers online a martial art? For me (maybe not you) that is a pointless waste of time.
 
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/76377/boxing/229613/The-boxing-world

The boxing world » Amateur boxing » Military boxing
Boxing has been considered excellent training for soldiers, at least since the time of ancient Greece and Rome. The British army has long trained its personnel in boxing, believing that it developed fitness and, more important, character. The American military followed that lead, and soon after World War II a large number of armies from nations in Europe and Asia incorporated boxing into their military training.

Although few armies currently include boxing in basic training, amateur boxing still features heavily in military sports. The German army (Bundeswehr), British army, and U.S. military all have extensive boxing programs, and their boxers compete at the Olympics as well as at the Military World Games organized under the auspices of the Conseil International du Sport Militaire (CISM). Leon Spinks, Ray Mercer, and Ken Norton are among the prominent boxers who learned their trade in the U.S. military.
 
http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_svinth2_0100.htm


Amateur Boxing in Pre-World War II Japan: The Military Connection
by Joseph R. Svinth
Copyright © 2000 All rights reserved.
Journal of Non-lethal Combatives, January 2000

In the February 1922 edition of The Ring, Nat Fleischer wrote that before World War I:

It was not easy to speak more than just a kind word for the game [of boxing]. It was classed as brutal, as debasing, followed only by the rough, the uncultured, the vicious. It was no easy task to dispel this vision of boxing, and it is likely that the game would long have felt this unjust stigma but for a concurrence of events that in bold strokes wiped away for all time this stain.
Then, said Fleischer, along came the World War, in which boxing proved "the greatest foundation a military machine could have had. It worked two-fold -- it provided the physical development sought and mental relaxation, both of prime necessity in the case at hand." Furthermore -- and here he exaggerated mightily -- Fleischer said that boxing had been baptized in blood at Cambrai and the Marne when the American soldiers threw "aside the cumbersome rifle, the unwieldy bayonet, struck out with their fists and never missed a target aimed at, nor ever failed to drop the target."
Although Japanese officers never had any intention of doing anything so stupid as encouraging their soldiers to throw away their rifles during combat, the theory that boxing turned civilians into fighting men intrigued the Japanese general staff enough to send observers to watch US and British recruit training. As the Japanese paper Yomiuri said in March 1919:

During the war no people demonstrated so well as the English the truth that healthy spirit and lofty aspirations live in sound bodies.
The paper thinks this country must take lessons from the British, who not satisfied with the hoarding of wealth would ensure the physical robustness of the nation.

So, toward learning the truth about boxing the Toyama Military Academy in Tokyo organized a class during the winter of 1923-1924.
There are different accounts about how this came about. According to an article published in Readers Digest in January 1943 the Japanese Ministry of War asked a US Army military attaché named Warren J. Clear to demonstrate the value of military boxing. Captain Clear agreed, and thereupon began training with a friend from the embassy named John E. Tynan. Due to Japanese insistence, the planned demonstration turned into a boxing-versus-jujutsu match of the kind popular in Yokohama and other Japanese seaports of the day. In the end Clear won the fight by knockout. Reasons included luck (dazed after being thrown hard, Clear was saved by the bell), the fact that he was not wearing a judo jacket (thus preventing many chokes), and most of all, his opponent, a jujutsuka named Kitamura, was grossly overconfident.



But in 1943 the United States was at war with Japan, and the reality of Clear's match in Tokyo was probably less sanguinary than the account published in Readers Digest, and surely less sanguinary than the version that appeared in the 1943 RKO film called Behind the Rising Sun. According to the Japan Times, Japanese officials, various US diplomats, and their staffs gathered at the Toyama Military Academy at 3:00 p.m. on Saturday, May 17, 1924, to watch a military boxing exhibition led by Captain Clear.

Clear had begun his military career in 1917. While still a student at Boston College, he had enlisted at New York's Plattsburg Barracks, and on November 10, 1917 he accepted a commission as a provisional Second Lieutenant of Infantry. Following wartime service at Madison Barracks, New York, he was transferred to the 22nd Infantry Division, which at the time was based at Fort Jay, New York. From there he was assigned to Tientsin, sailing from the US in May 1919. While in China Lieutenant Clear was assigned to the 14th Infantry and Chinese people he met apparently included the young Mao Zedong.

Four years later Clear, now a captain, was reassigned to the US Embassy in Tokyo. There he arranged to teach boxing to Japanese officer candidates in exchange for permission to accompany Japanese soldiers on maneuvers. As for his treatment by the officer candidates and their supervisors, in December 1924 Clear wrote in the Japan Times that they were "all good sportsmen, absolutely fair and not afraid of punishments." So probably the Readers Digest account contained more than a touch of wartime hysteria.

One thing both versions of the story agreed upon was that the Japanese soldiers had a degree of confidence that bordered on hubris. As Clear wrote in December 1924:

The best little 120-pounder was not content with being the best man in his class. He was actually chagrined and mortified when he couldn't defeat the 175-pound champion and so be king-pin of them all. The best pupil of the lot left the class after ten lessons and opened a boxing-academy! [FN1]
Be that as it may, it is probably safest to conclude that the Toyama Military Academy began to incorporate boxing into its physical training program during the winter of 1923-1924 and that Clear and other American soldiers were the instructors. [FN2]


The program was evidently successful, too, as boxing was subsequently encouraged in Japanese military academies and colleges. Renaming the sport was essential, however, to ensure its acceptance as a proper Japanese sport. The name it got was kento, or "Good Fighting." In February 1931 boxing promoter Yujiro Watanabe explained the reasoning for this decision to reporters from the Japan Times. "The game which was introduced in the market ten years ago," he said, "it was not a genuine one and it was a mixed up game of boxing versus jujitsu. Japanese thought the boxing game is made for 'judo' and all the foreigners are champion boxers, especially the Americans. Therefore the boxing was called 'merikan' in those times instead of 'kentow', which we name the game now."

Watanabe also told the reporter that boxing was well suited to developing Japanese he-men. First, he said, the sport classified boxers according to weight. Thus stature was irrelevant and everyone got to compete equally. Second, participation built character by encouraging participants to do their best. But most importantly, said Watanabe, if the Japanese were to compete internationally, then "boxing is the best medium, for it is a universal sport today. Its progress after the World War has been astonishing."

Ironically, the "he-men" developed by Japanese collegiate boxing were as often Korean as Japanese. The first Korean champions to be mentioned by name in Japan Times appear to have been Ko of Meiji, Ko of Nihon University, and Jo of the Nihon Boxing Club, all of whom won matches in the Meiji Jingu Games of November 1929. It is possible that Jo was Teiken Jo, who was later ranked sixth in the world. [FN3]

The reason was that most Japanese boys who liked combative sports liked judo and kendo better than boxing. [FN4] Furthermore, when the Japanese schoolboys did box, it was often politely. For example, in February 1931 Kari Yado wrote in the Japan Times that during bouts between Japanese students, whenever one "delivered a hard blow, he would apologize by bowing his head slightly or by showing a friendly look in his eyes. There was no knockout in those days. When a boxer began bleeding in his nose, a cry of horror went up [Promoter Yujiro] Watanabe had a hard time explaining to the student boxers that they need not and should not refrain from hitting a groggy opponent. 'You must cultivate the spirit of manliness,' he roared."

Koreans, though, were subject to all kinds of discrimination and therefore found boxing clubs good places to safely and happily punch Japanese in the nose.

Regardless of ethnicity, the first exposure most Asians had to boxing was Hollywood films in which, as Japan Times put it, "the hero knocks men right and left." During the early 1920s, these films were popular throughout the Japanese Empire. Jack Dempsey's Fight and Win, for example, played in Tokyo from late 1924 until the middle of 1925. The Boxing Blade's Mike Collins wrote of this film: "Dempsey was a fellow who had done a little fighting but had quit the game and now was doing hard common labor. The world's champion, who was Ed Kennedy, arrived in town, and as usual with a champion, he was looking for soft opponents At the same time Dempsey's mother got very sick." Similar films starring Reginald Denny and William Russell were also popular. An advertisement for Denny's Fighting Blood series described the films as "the biggest treat in the world for anybody who can get a kick out of a real 'go' between HE-MEN." "The hero of these wonderfully human stories is a lowly soda jerker," added an article in the same January 1923 issue of The Ring, "who becomes overnight a champion of the prize ring!" In other words, in plot and character development they were not quite as sophisticated as Rocky or The Karate Kid.

In the real world, an intercollegiate tournament held at Yasukuni Shrine in Tokyo's Kudan district on November 15, 1925 pitted boxers from Waseda University against boxers from Meiji University. Although "most of the student boxers failed to counter properly," said the Japan Times, "they are fast, clever, and game, and ought to be good boxers if they continue practicing."

In the lightweight finals, continued the paper, Waseda's "Sugino carried dream-producing power, the consequence being that Ishikawa at the end of that [tie-breaking fourth] round was minus one tooth. He showed gameness to fight but was so groggy that his opponent hesitated to hit him any more, and the referee stopped the fight." The fans, however, were not impressed, yelling, "Finish 'em, kill 'em. Fight for Meiji. Fight for Keio."

On May 1, 1926, another large amateur boxing tournament was held at the sumo grounds at the Yasukuni Shrine. This match coincided with the annual sumo tournament and was to feature collegiate boxers from across the country. The main event featured 18-year old Kaneo Nakamura, bantamweight, versus 21-year old Kazuo Takahashi, featherweight. Nakamura, said Japan Times, "uses his left with good effect while Takahashi is noted for his wicked right cross." Both men later boxed professionally in the United States, where Nakamura became moderately successful.

A month later, Meiji and Waseda Universities held another intercollegiate fight. About twenty fighters were scheduled for the preliminaries, held in Tokyo on Saturday, June 5, 1926. Although I do not know the results of these bouts, they nonetheless influenced Hawaiian boxing. "When I was in Japan last year," Honolulu's K. Oki told the Hawaiian sportswriter Don Watson in April 1927, "I noticed that many of the young boys were taking up boxing In fact several smokers were staged while I was there and they all drew big crowds. The Japanese like any competition between individuals and that is the reason they are taking up boxing." As a result Oki, a leader of the Asahi baseball organization in Honolulu, began promoting boxing among Hawaiian Nisei.

With so many colleges having boxing teams there was soon a clamor for a national amateur boxing association. The reason, said Japan Times, was that "the existence of small organizations, each pursuing its own course without effective co-operation between the different bodies, and without any feeling of rivalry, is retarding the development of the American pastime in this country." A national organization also would allow Japanese boxers to subsequently enter international competition such as the Far Eastern Championship Games and the Olympics. The leaders of this organization, which was formed in 1927, was Yujiro Watanabe and Ryusei Kato. Soon after, American-style boxing was added to the list of athletic events featured in the Meiji Jingu Athletic Games, and by extension an official Imperial Japanese combative sport.
 
Kusa

The passage you include is interesting but I asked...



Whilst this article includes some interesting anectdotes about how the sport of boxing was of interest to the Japanese and how they might have seen it as a way to toughen up their men, it contains not accounts of boxing ever being used in warfare, unless you include this passage



But as it says in that passage...



In other words the author of that passage was prone to exageration.

the rest of the article just points out how boxing became a sport in Japan, and mentions nothing about the use of boxing in war. So I ask again...

When was boxing ever used in warfare?

Apart from that much of the article seems to talk about matches between boxing and jujutsu men and how there was a class for one year at Toyama university between 1923 and 1924. Hardly a suucessful turning point in the art of boxing in the Japanese military if it only lasted a year. And thsi itself seems to be nothing more than an exhibition rather than actual training of troops.

When was boxing ever used in warfare?

Now i'm not saying it wasn't I just cant find any evidence that it ever was.

Garth
 
1) The Toyama academy, is a not a university as such, it was military academy geared towards training army officers and as such is Japanese equivalent of West Point. There was also the Nakano military academy, which is where many Bujinken sources claim Takamatsu sensei also taught.

So would you say that even if Takamatsu sensei taught at a military academy over two years, that ‘Ninpo’ isn’t a real martial art?


2) Parkour is a martial art?

‘’ Conversly if I am in a combat situation and during that situation I have to escape from capture, using Parkour I learnt as a kid to enable me to scale that 12 foot wall, does Parkour become a martial art?’’

- waste of time discussion. But heres a wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkour

and that is all I will mention on the subject, any more and you will get bad Kuji Kiri’d

‘’Parkour is a physical activity that is difficult to categorize. It is often mis-categorized as a sport or an extreme sport; however, parkour has no set of rules, team work, formal hierarchy, or competitiveness.[4][5] Most experienced traceurs think of parkour as a discipline closer to martial arts.[6][7] According to REFO, "the physical aspect of parkour is getting over all the obstacles in your path as you would in an emergency. You want to move in such a way, with any movement, as to help you gain the most ground on someone or something, whether escaping from it or chasing toward it."[8] Thus, when faced with a hostile confrontation with a person, one will be able to speak, fight, or flee. As martial arts are a form of training for the fight, parkour is a form of training for the flight.[7] Because of its unique nature, it is often said that parkour is in its own category.’’


3) Is the ability to land a knockout blow useful in warfare, I would say yes. the army box often, MCMAP is comprised of boxing and Thai boxing techniques, they are currently being used as we speak.

4) Now here’s a question for you Gary, have you ever sparred anyone who boxed, kickboxed or Thai boxed (Thai Boxing having been used on the Thai battle field) because coming out with inane statements like ‘boxing isn’t REAL MARTIAL ARTS‘‘ makes you look to be very inexperienced.
 
Gary what point is it exactly that your trying to make? It seems like your so busy trying to argue word games that your actual message has got distorted?
 
Kusa posted



No because Ninpo was used in warfare. This is very well documented and has nothing to do with teaching it at an academy as a sport.



Thats my question to you, to which you said parkour was a martial art. I asked whether based on that if hot air ballooning was/is also a martial art. A question you have failed to answer and have avoided that question even though i explained the question twice.

After all if you are saying that parkour is a martial; art it follows by logic that skiing, rockclimbing, horse riding, scuba diving and hot air ballooning are also martial arts because they have at one point been used in warfare.

But clearly many practitioners of these arts might not call their art a martial art.

So the question is "where do we draw the line between martial art, and non martial art"



Two points

1/ I never said that boxing was not a martial art. reread what i wrote again. I asked when boxing was used as an art of warfare. theres a difference.

2/ Yes boxing was one of the first combat orientated sports I did.

You seem very good at misreading what I posted and putting words in my mouth.



The question is very easy to understand, what is it that makes something a martial art.

See post 65 and 47.

Garth
 
garth Ive answered my own view on your question several times.

martial = combatative = fighting, even if your running away from fighting, or enduring fighting, there is fighting involved.

what is fighting? one person imposing there will over another.

How about you, what is your definition of martial arts.

ps
When was the possable extant lines of Ninpo ever documented as being used in warfare, we cant currently track the ninpo Ryu-ha past Takamatsu Sensei. Now if you can prove that I would be interested.

pps
The phrase Ninpo as coined by Takamatsu Sensei, so if you want to be really accurate.
'Ninpo' was never used in federal warfare, neither is their current proof about the role Takamatsu sensei played with the Nakano military acadamy.
 
Simple question, Since boxing is a sport, not a military art (even though most armies train in it) per your definition, and your tatsu-tora dojo is according to you (does airsoft really count) do you think you are more capable then a ProBoxer?
 
Kusa posted



Sorry what has this got to do with anything. Are you saying that an arts effectiveness is what constitutes a martial art?

Also again when did I say that boxing was a sport and not a martial art.

I did say it was a sport, but I never said it was not a martial art.

Again reread what i posted. And if you cant read what I posted instead of reading something else into it and having to say I said things which i clearly did not, then i'm afraid this discussion has come to an end.

Garth
 
No Gary, I’m linking up your lines of thought into a coherent message, then pointing out the inaccuracies within it.

You were implying that only arts used by soldiers on the battlefield were real martial arts.
You then went on to try and separate boxing (even when taught to the army) out from battlefield martial arts.

Most probably because you have a very image based view on martial arts, and the image of the solider is very important to you, hence your aviator.

But when I make a personal example of this, what you know in your heart, differs from how you like to imagine yourself to be. Therefore you throw your candy floss out of the pram, and take your ball home early.
 
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