The American Infallibility Complex
- Thread starter munchingcarpets
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suziejoyrevised
Member
Slavery in America was not abolished with a majority vote. It was abolished through five years of bloody war.
Racial segregation in the American South was not abolished with a majority vote. It was abolished by a Supreme Court decision and the President ordering the deployment of FRICKIN' PARATROOPERS WITH RIFLES AND BAYONETS TO AMERICAN HIGH SCHOOLS to enforce the Supreme Court decision.
The Nazi regime and the Imperial Japanese regime were not abolished with a majority vote. They were not ended by the rest of us waiting for it to run its course and waiting for Germans and Japanese to realize what they were doing was a crime against humanity. They were forced to change by wars so brutal that they make the worst of America's War on Terror look like a children's TV show. And now Germany and Japan have top-notch, benevolent governments and progressive cultures. Just like anyone else, they're not perfect--for example, there's still a glass ceiling for women in the Japanese workplace--but if you compare those two countries to where they were a couple generations ago when changed was forced on the Japanese and German populations...it's incredible.
I'm not saying that forcing cultural change with rifles and bayonets should ever be Plan A. It shouldn't. But it can work when nothing else will. And when Wahhabists are sentencing gays to death simply for being gay, when they're throwing acid on schoolgirls and shooting them in the head for simply trying to go to school, when they're sentencing rape victims to lashings or stonings for "adultery"...I don't see that sitting and waiting for them to "be ready to change" is working.
Racial segregation in the American South was not abolished with a majority vote. It was abolished by a Supreme Court decision and the President ordering the deployment of FRICKIN' PARATROOPERS WITH RIFLES AND BAYONETS TO AMERICAN HIGH SCHOOLS to enforce the Supreme Court decision.
The Nazi regime and the Imperial Japanese regime were not abolished with a majority vote. They were not ended by the rest of us waiting for it to run its course and waiting for Germans and Japanese to realize what they were doing was a crime against humanity. They were forced to change by wars so brutal that they make the worst of America's War on Terror look like a children's TV show. And now Germany and Japan have top-notch, benevolent governments and progressive cultures. Just like anyone else, they're not perfect--for example, there's still a glass ceiling for women in the Japanese workplace--but if you compare those two countries to where they were a couple generations ago when changed was forced on the Japanese and German populations...it's incredible.
I'm not saying that forcing cultural change with rifles and bayonets should ever be Plan A. It shouldn't. But it can work when nothing else will. And when Wahhabists are sentencing gays to death simply for being gay, when they're throwing acid on schoolgirls and shooting them in the head for simply trying to go to school, when they're sentencing rape victims to lashings or stonings for "adultery"...I don't see that sitting and waiting for them to "be ready to change" is working.
go_duluth2010
New member
Yep. Immoral. Shall we change it or just wait until the banking system feels ready to change?
Not entirely; not if it leads to a prolonged form of imperialism through 5 members of the security country that will invade countrys at there will, not if it allows mass industrialization of debt slavery, not if we have a world criminal court that cannot investigate the 5 most powerful countries in the world because that is not justice and that is not for the benefit of mankind. Although I might not like witch doctors they have not lead us into a path were entire cities can be wiped of the face of the earth and were men are given such power that can decide the fates of entire countries by there whim.
I believe in a global community but a just and moral one; that is not what exists now.
I believe in a global community but a just and moral one; that is not what exists now.
To think of it as a continuum I feel is a big mistake. That seems to imply some kind of evolutionary imperative, or manifest destiny.
Aside from the fact that recorded history makes up a tiny amount of the time we've been around, I don't see the case for drawing an arrow through it from "bad" to "good".
Aside from the fact that recorded history makes up a tiny amount of the time we've been around, I don't see the case for drawing an arrow through it from "bad" to "good".
Witchdoctors would employ curses and the gods to smite their enemies - it is only lack of tools that prevented them from mass genocide, not a cultural dispositon
The system is not perfect but it is far greater than what was - and what will follow will be greater still. Humanity has an inbuilt "survival" chip and will grow to accomodate what suits it best
The system is not perfect but it is far greater than what was - and what will follow will be greater still. Humanity has an inbuilt "survival" chip and will grow to accomodate what suits it best
Do you think the world would be in a better global state if, rather than some form of western european "culture" becoming the dominant force, it was the Aztec culture, or the Wahhabi culture, or the Apache culture, or the New Guinea highlander culture, or Sahn bushman culture, etc etc?
In some cases maybe it would.
But in MANY cases it would be a LOT worse.
I'm not interested in east v west or west v islam.
All we are after is finding the best way to live on this planet that ensures every person has the same basic standard of living.
We'll never get there most likely but that shouldn't stop us from making real world choices about how to behave (no matter where those choices come from) that move us closer to that goal.
In some cases maybe it would.
But in MANY cases it would be a LOT worse.
I'm not interested in east v west or west v islam.
All we are after is finding the best way to live on this planet that ensures every person has the same basic standard of living.
We'll never get there most likely but that shouldn't stop us from making real world choices about how to behave (no matter where those choices come from) that move us closer to that goal.
Do you think slavery will ever become widely acceptable again?
Just as normal as brushing your teeth and chatting on MAP?
Is it just random moral drift that has seen slavery decline and it could go in reverse tomorrow and next year I'll have some slaves?
I don't see it happening. After some ups and downs (the sawtooth I mentioned) we've, pretty much globally, gone down the route that slavery is morally bad (quite rightly) and it will ever be thus.
You REALLY can't put an arrow through the story of slavery from bad to good?
It's no better now than in the past?
Really?
Just as normal as brushing your teeth and chatting on MAP?
Is it just random moral drift that has seen slavery decline and it could go in reverse tomorrow and next year I'll have some slaves?
I don't see it happening. After some ups and downs (the sawtooth I mentioned) we've, pretty much globally, gone down the route that slavery is morally bad (quite rightly) and it will ever be thus.
You REALLY can't put an arrow through the story of slavery from bad to good?
It's no better now than in the past?
Really?
ILoveHowieCarr
Member
Firstly, in the second world war no one went to war with Germany because of what they were doing to the Jews, people went in because they could see Hitler was trying to conquer Europe (they were scared). America throughout was reluctant and only entered when it was attacked by Japan (there war with Japan can be considered self defence not regime change).
Secondly world war 2 illustrates my point perfectly; what happened? The allies had to join with the communists under Joseph Stalin (who killed more people during his rule than Hitler did!); which means the main powers of the world decided to join forces against their enemies (in other words we had a global majority in favour of getting rid of hitler). World war 2 was a political war nothing more.
Thirdly I find what you say profoundly ignorant about Japanese and German people; these nations have always been highly intelligent and hard working. The germans have been renowned throughout European history for its incredibly strong work ethic and dilligence in what they do; today they have a powerful manufacturing sector which drives there economy BECAUSE OF THERE OWN CULTURE. The Japanese have an ancient history of designing and dedication to work which is what drives the cutting edge technology they are now famous for. In fact before Hitler was around Albert Einstein was the greatest scientist in the world; do not make Hitler a symbol of German culture; Germany has a history that goes back way before then.
Secondly world war 2 illustrates my point perfectly; what happened? The allies had to join with the communists under Joseph Stalin (who killed more people during his rule than Hitler did!); which means the main powers of the world decided to join forces against their enemies (in other words we had a global majority in favour of getting rid of hitler). World war 2 was a political war nothing more.
Thirdly I find what you say profoundly ignorant about Japanese and German people; these nations have always been highly intelligent and hard working. The germans have been renowned throughout European history for its incredibly strong work ethic and dilligence in what they do; today they have a powerful manufacturing sector which drives there economy BECAUSE OF THERE OWN CULTURE. The Japanese have an ancient history of designing and dedication to work which is what drives the cutting edge technology they are now famous for. In fact before Hitler was around Albert Einstein was the greatest scientist in the world; do not make Hitler a symbol of German culture; Germany has a history that goes back way before then.
Really.
There's been a nice bit for a few countries right at the last minute. But comparing ancient Greeks to medieval europe, to the Aztecs, to the world wars, to the industrial revolution, to hunter-gatherer societies, to the golden age of Islam... I don't see a clear line at all.
And as for "ever more", the only way of life or culture that has never died out is tribal hunter-gatherers. There is no "ever more" or eternity for humans. Cultures come and go, sometimes the historians can't even say why. To think of humanity as on a never-ending quest of moral refinement sounds not just naive, but positively new age.
There's been a nice bit for a few countries right at the last minute. But comparing ancient Greeks to medieval europe, to the Aztecs, to the world wars, to the industrial revolution, to hunter-gatherer societies, to the golden age of Islam... I don't see a clear line at all.
And as for "ever more", the only way of life or culture that has never died out is tribal hunter-gatherers. There is no "ever more" or eternity for humans. Cultures come and go, sometimes the historians can't even say why. To think of humanity as on a never-ending quest of moral refinement sounds not just naive, but positively new age.
fullmetaljakit
New member
Woah woah woah. I never said that Germany and Japan lacked technological innovation or hard workers prior to WWII. Of course both countries have long histories of both virtues. I specifically singled out "benevolent government" and "progressive culture," not "industry" or "technology" or "innovation" or "work ethic." Neither country had a good history of governmental benevolence or societal tolerance for minorities and the like before WWII.
The USSR collapsed because the USA bankrupted them in an arms race and space race where they couldn't keep up. It was still driven by external forces, indeed, external militaries, even though bullets weren't flying.
Also, while it's good that the USSR changed without bullets flying, that doesn't always happen. It's true that the Allies didn't fight WWII for the express purpose of ending the Holocaust, but at the end of the day, the Holocaust wouldn't have stopped without external military intervention. The Holocaust was picking up steam with no signs of stopping when Germany collapsed; it wasn't tapering off. One in three Jews worldwide was murdered in a five-year period. Seriously, the world Jewish population went down 33% in five years. Who knows what Nazi Germany could have done in another five years?
Also, while it's good that the USSR changed without bullets flying, that doesn't always happen. It's true that the Allies didn't fight WWII for the express purpose of ending the Holocaust, but at the end of the day, the Holocaust wouldn't have stopped without external military intervention. The Holocaust was picking up steam with no signs of stopping when Germany collapsed; it wasn't tapering off. One in three Jews worldwide was murdered in a five-year period. Seriously, the world Jewish population went down 33% in five years. Who knows what Nazi Germany could have done in another five years?
CountryBoyRaptor700
New member
If you look at what probably would have happened if the bombs hadn't been dropped you might be surprised.
I read an alternative history book where the bombs weren't dropped and Americia went ahead with the invasion of Japan. The book was based on documents released by the US and Japan on invasion plans and the planned defense.
The US was gearing up for a landing that would have made Normandy look small. They were expecting 100% causalities for the 1st 10 waves to hit the beach before a beachhead could be established.
The Japanese at that time were planning a fight to the death defense where even women and children would be armed with bamboo spears and knives.
Causalities for both sides would have gone into the millions and the resulting peace accord would have been severe to say the least.
This does not account for the fact that the USSR was planning it's own invasion of the northern islands.
Another thing to keep in mind if it hadn't been for nuclear weapons there is a high likelihood that there would have been another war in Europe between Nato and the Warsaw Pact.
This is not endorsement of nuclear weapons but it shows the answers aren't nearly as black and white as presented.
I read an alternative history book where the bombs weren't dropped and Americia went ahead with the invasion of Japan. The book was based on documents released by the US and Japan on invasion plans and the planned defense.
The US was gearing up for a landing that would have made Normandy look small. They were expecting 100% causalities for the 1st 10 waves to hit the beach before a beachhead could be established.
The Japanese at that time were planning a fight to the death defense where even women and children would be armed with bamboo spears and knives.
Causalities for both sides would have gone into the millions and the resulting peace accord would have been severe to say the least.
This does not account for the fact that the USSR was planning it's own invasion of the northern islands.
Another thing to keep in mind if it hadn't been for nuclear weapons there is a high likelihood that there would have been another war in Europe between Nato and the Warsaw Pact.
This is not endorsement of nuclear weapons but it shows the answers aren't nearly as black and white as presented.
I thought it started with people like John Winthrop and his city upon a hill phrase.
That aint so great though, That kind of free speech interpretation also allows people like wbc to protest and funerals and sandy hook and harm people.
As for the comment made by i forget who here,
"Now as far as women, it's just a matter of perspective. Women here aren't really treated any better. Just because we say we treat women better doesn't mean that's the case. Yes, in countries like Saudi and many other Arab countries, there are sadly some laws that favor men over women. But women at least aren't seen as sex objects like they are here."
Is that so? well we believe in letting our women wear their own clothes, and we teach people that its NOT ok to treat people as sex objects because of how they dress. Long way to go, but lots of us teach that. In every way. Whereas they over there teachthat men are just like tomcats and cant control themselves and will jump you if you arent wearing a hijab or a burka. Even if you are. assault is rampant. women are taught to cover up because they are objects if desire. I'd say they are the ones teaching that we females are sex objects. Not us.
That aint so great though, That kind of free speech interpretation also allows people like wbc to protest and funerals and sandy hook and harm people.
As for the comment made by i forget who here,
"Now as far as women, it's just a matter of perspective. Women here aren't really treated any better. Just because we say we treat women better doesn't mean that's the case. Yes, in countries like Saudi and many other Arab countries, there are sadly some laws that favor men over women. But women at least aren't seen as sex objects like they are here."
Is that so? well we believe in letting our women wear their own clothes, and we teach people that its NOT ok to treat people as sex objects because of how they dress. Long way to go, but lots of us teach that. In every way. Whereas they over there teachthat men are just like tomcats and cant control themselves and will jump you if you arent wearing a hijab or a burka. Even if you are. assault is rampant. women are taught to cover up because they are objects if desire. I'd say they are the ones teaching that we females are sex objects. Not us.
xxryanxrossxx
New member
Random fun fact related to that: They printed a bunch of Purple Hearts to deal with the number of casualties they expected from an invasion of the Japanese mainland and they still haven't used them all up yet.
WhackAJack
New member
They've certainly tried hard.