The American Infallibility Complex

I've heard Marakesh and Casablanca are beautiful. Not the biggest fan of Moroccan food but definitely a great place to visit. It's just unfortunate that much of the world has people like that yet many of us fail to see them for their simple things like you just mentioned.



Good point. I didn't intend to label all Americans though. I'm trying to be careful to draw a distinct line here: What We Really Are vs What Much of the World Sees Us As. And then given the "what we really are" side of the argument, I know so many semi-intelligent people that are victims of the examples I gave.



No not yet. If I get permission from my sensei, I'd like to attend the next taikai. As one of the assistant senseis at my dojo said, I should keep my focus on my training right now.
 
My view is that although the nationalism in America is largely seen as distasteful by those looking in, it is probably a necessary evil to keep such a large country from fracturing under the weight of state parochialism. While military hero worship and school rituals of pledges of allegiance and flag saluting may be seen by non-Americans as containing shades of fascism, I believe that this strong nationalistic fervour, plus a weak democracy on the national level (a two party political system) have probably enabled such a large country to remain unified.

Whether or not this is sustainable (or desirable), I don't know. Perhaps 100 years from now we will see the union collapse, but I think what many people see as American flaws such as military worship and a belief in American exceptionalism are actually the glue that is preventing it from falling apart.
 
Sorry Sandninjer. I'm finding your points mostly anti-western - pro-eastern rubbish.
Very biased.
You are fixating on the bad things in western society while ignoring the good and vice versa with eastern societies.
You are jaded about what is great in western society because it's so familiar while being enamoured with eastern societies.
All societies are a mix of things they do well and things they do badly. Things to be proud of and things to be ashamed of.
Sadly it's something I've seen in various documentaries coming from Muslims.
They see drunkeness and sexualisation of women and think that is "western society" and forget Shakespeare, Darwin, Milton, Austen, Twain, Wilde etc etc.
Your points against my previous post are all sorts of wrong.
 
PAS, that's entirely your opinion and if you feel the need to label me as a Muslim for my views, then I can only have pity for you. Again, you've assumed that the point in my posts are to bash the U.S. when in fact, time after time in this thread I've stated I'm merely doing a comparison that we aren't in fact "#1" in the world and that for many of us to harbor that mentality so strongly is one of our biggest downfalls and is another reason why we can't seem to establish any meaningful peace treaties with nations we're at war with.
 
Also...



This is written by a Consumer, it isn't your fault, but if you think of things instead like a Producer then your approach could be:

I don't call that slavery, I call it freedom. From a young age, we have the opportunity to improve everything we do in the U.S., ranging from our freedom to foreign policies to education to healthcare (etc), striving to make it superior to the rest of the world, and then partnering with our fellow countries to raise the bar for us all. We have some of the brightest minds in the world here in the U.S. and so many opportunities to achieve individual greatness, yet so many of us fail to actually use our brains and think outside of what we were raised to believe.
 
Sandninjer,

I think there's a huge divide between what you're saying and what you're thinking. Because you're saying you see plenty of positives about the US, but you're choosing not to mention them in this thread. What this means, for people who don't know you, is that you come off as bashing even though you say that's not your intent. So what follows is not "to Sandninjer, the human being," because I don't know you or what you believe. Instead, this is directed at "to Sandninjer, the original poster of this thread," because without knowing you, that's all I can do.

First off, I don't know what "need to label you as a Muslim" even means. I don't know or care what your religion is (though given that your username appears to be a play on "sand-ni**er," the most offensive slur for Arabs I've ever heard, I hope you are of Middle Eastern descent, because if you're a white dude, that's just messed up). I don't think your viewpoint is typical of any particular religion, but I do think your viewpoint is an extreme of "the grass is always greener on the other side" mentality.

You say that women are treated better in the Muslim world than in America. How can anyone seriously assert that? When public rape is used as a tool of political oppression in Tahrir Square, both under Mubarak and under the Islamic Brotherhood. It happened to two female western journalists and countless Egyptian women. When girls who dare to go to school in Afghanistan have acid thrown in their faces or are shot in the head. When "honor killings" of girls who hold a boy's hand, or are the victims of rape, are disturbingly common-place. Where women frequently are denied the vote and almost always denied political office or the ability to own and operate businesses. Where women in Egypt ride in gender-segregated public transportation to protect themselves from rampant harassment. I agree with you entirely that the Britney Spears/Paris Hilton culture in the US is really messed up and can wreak havoc on girls' self-esteem...but we give girls and women the choice to be involved in that, or instead to follow the lead of Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, former Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice, Hewlett-Packard CEO Meg Whitman, etc. We encourage women to be astronauts, soldiers, business leaders, architects, whatever they want to be. Girls are dramatically safer here in the US, and women have dramatically more opportunities here in the US. There is no possible way to argue otherwise unless you're ignoring all but the worst of the USA and ignoring all but the best of the Muslim world.

And don't even get me started on quality of life if you happen to be a religious minority or gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender. We have religious minorities elected into our Congress. How many Middle Eastern countries can claim the same? (I know of only one, and it's Israel). There used to be hundreds of thousands of Jews in Iraq, Iran, and Egypt. They're basically all gone--fled or killed. I don't see Muslim-Americans doing the same, because there's no need to. And gays? Homosexuality is a crime punishable by either imprisonment or death in most of the Middle East and Africa (once again, Israel being a notable exception). That "oh, everyone is so nice and friendly and welcoming" stereotype is only extended to certain demographic groups.

And you say that there must be something wrong with America because we can't make peace with Muslim extremists. Let me ask you this: why don't you assume something is wrong with Muslim extremists? Because if their attacks on the USA are our fault, than I guess the UK is also to blame (London train bombings), Indonesia and Australia are to blame (Bali bombings), Spaniards are to blame (Madrid bombings), Argentinians are to blame (bombing of the Jewish community center in Buenas Aires), and most of all, OTHER MUSLIMS are to blame. Because a day can't go by without Muslim extremists detonating a car bomb in Iraq, Pakistan, Lebanon, or elsewhere killing 20-50 innocent civilians. The fact is, Muslim extremists can't get along with ANYBODY besides other Muslim extremists...not even other Muslims. So I refuse to believe that Muslim extremists' refusal to coexist with the USA is proof that the USA is to blame.

Third, you comment about how messed up US culture was, suggesting it's awful to be a Muslim here...but if that was the case, you wouldn't see so many Muslims flocking to the US to become US citizens, and you'd see more striving to get out. It's the old "vote with your wallet" test. Everyone on the internet loves to bash Toyota and wax nostalgic about Saab, but at the end of the day, tons of people bought Toyotas without blinking an eye and essentially nobody bought Saabs. What does that tell you? Likewise, for all the griping, Muslims are flocking to America. The Muslim population in America is about 5 million now, roughly equivalent to the American Jewish population. And why? Because, as many issues as there are still in the USA, the worst day in Michigan is better than the best day in Syria. Far better. Hey, I get that. When my family fled Russia in 1892, there was plenty of anti-Semitism in the USA. But you know what? The worst day in New York was better than the best day in Russia. Same is true for Muslims today. The fact is, even as a "distrusted minority" in the USA, people have more political power, better treatment from law enforcement, better personal safety, and more business opportunities than they have as "the majority" in pretty much the entire Middle East. America has plenty of areas yet to improve, but life is pretty good here--people come here for a reason.

America isn't perfect. But America IS awesome. Profoundly awesome. We have a lot to be justifiably proud of. And, once people get away from excessively romanticizing life in Africa, the Middle East, and Central Asia, we offer one hell of an improvement in quality-of-life by any measurable standard.
 
It's not a label per se.
Just that I see your point of view in other muslims. Especially young ones.
In the UK they see our beer and football culture and think that IS our culture.
They then read the good bits of the koran and then assume that that IS muslim culture.
Neither is true.
It's a mixed bag. Some good, some bad.

Mitlov summed it up well.


Rose tinted glasses when looking at one thing and then taking them off when looking at something else.
I would not swap for one second my daughter's life in the UK with a similar life in Somalia or the Yemen.
And that's not entirely down to cultural differnces or misplaced cultural superiority on my part but because there really are tangible and real differences in how those countries treat their residents and girls in particular.
 
I was recently in a Muslim country in the Gulf and was talking to a young Philipina who migrated there for work. She was terrified to go anywhere other than home, to work, or to an ethnic Philipino grocery store, and she never went anywhere alone. She said the men there treat women terribly and, in particular, asian immigrants. All the locals just assume she is a prostitute. Actually, now that I think of it, I just watched an interview on either CNN or BBC World about an Indonesian women in Beirut that was moving back home after her daughter was born because of how women are treated there.
 
anecdotal evidence FTW!

All cultures have gender issues, it's just a sliding scale from bad to worse.
 
I've noticed the same thing in tunesia, in 2000. We were in Tabarka.
There was 1 (really, 1) place in the town where women were allowed inside. Because somehow that would be inappropriate. Apparently it was a lot less inappropriate that most men in public places would ogle my wife who was dressed in a modest baggy tshirt and shorts that went to below the knees.

And then there was the dolt on the beach who was selling cheap knicknacks and enjoying the sun while his wife worked a 10 hour shift in the factory. Something which he explained was 'right'. The wife should work with a capital W, while the man should loaf around.

In terms of womens rights, the West is by far the better place.
 
Sorry to burst your bubble but I don't trust you. I know very well what many people from other parts of the world think. I have friends and family who live in most regions of the world, people I regularly connect with, and I can say on good authority that many of them have the same, or a similar, perspective as mine. Granted that's not including the whole world, so don't taking what I said out of context again and saying that I said it's everyone.



Mitlov, if people don't take the time to read every post in the thread, then I'm not at fault for what others taking my posts out of context.

I raised an argument and to raise an argument, you have to select a side otherwise you're just rambling. This is basic speech communication stuff you learn in college introductory courses, maybe even high school for some. Yes there are a great many things about my home the U.S., but we all glorify it so much already so it's pointless for me to continue to do so. The emphasis I've placed is on balancing the spectrum of what we consider equal in this world, hence pointing out contradictions in how the U.S. is actually NOT infallible and/or #1 and elevating the status of many other parts of the world which many of us seem to look down upon.



It means to not stereotype my opinions just because of my faith. I'm a born American and this is my home. If you haven't figured that out by the OP then I'm sorry to say but you shouldn't be posting replies in this thread then.



That answered my question for me. You actually didn't read the whole thread. So how can you so boldly claim you're going to judge me off how I present myself online when you yourself can't make the effort to read my posts?



Refer to my reply to one of the earlier quotes above.



Okay calm down man. I'd love for you to quote me where I said women have more rights in the Muslim world.



First off, the Jews there are gone because many of them were supporting the Israeli government when they decided to steal the land from the Palestinians (Muslims), hence them being forced to leave. Innocent Palestinian women and children are killed every single day by Israeli military but I don't see you mentioning that? Before the Zionist regime decided to take over Jeruselum and most of Israel, the Palestinians ruled over it in peace for 800+ years with equal rights to Christians and Jews. You also failed to mention that.

And your argument is because you're hell bent on imposing your cultural views on others. What you need to understand is that the Middle East is primarily Muslim, hence, their beliefs of what government should be like are twisted between Islamic law as well as changing the true Islamic law to feed their greed and prejudice. Despite that, there are still many laws which allow for people to establish good lifestyles. I'm extremely anti-Arab-government so I won't get started on that because it's irrelevant to this thread, but non-Arab Middle Eastern Muslim countries have their laws catered to mostly Muslims.

Yeah there are non-Muslims horribly persecuted for things they shouldn't be, but whenever they're prosecuted, our media never exposes it, but we're not much different considering how our foreign policies have led to WW3. We love to demonize Muslims because it serves another agenda, followed by countless speeches by major political figures claiming we're acting as God's right hand.



Oh yeah no problem, it's totally okay for us to send billions of dollars of support in arms to the Israeli government so they can continue stealing land from the Palestinians and murdering innocent families every day. But yeah, Muslim "extremists" at fault there because we won't listen to them when they asked us to adjust our foreign policies.



Spoken like a true ignorant. Tell me, when was the last time you went to Middle East? Do you have Middle Eastern family? I do, lots of them. I'd like to know where you're obtaining these statistics. Seriously, please tell me.

There's a substantial amount of fear within the American-Muslim community because we're targetted and profiled. A lot of the mosques warn us about being careful about what we say. There've been tons of cases of the FBI on the American west coast entrapping young, naive Muslims outside of mosques. It started here on the east coast a few years ago as well. There have been mosques that have warned us about this ranging across a few states here that I regularly travel to. I know many MANY Muslim-Americans who have also emmigrated. Yes, most people in the world tend to immigrate to the U.S. because we have a lot of great things here. But because people like you so deeply believe that just because cultures on the other side of the globe don't coincide with ours, they're looked down upon.




Yeah, and a LOT of people feel this way about the countries they live in as well. People are used to being able to live with less than we have but they don't care because they're used to it. They're happy and many of them live comfortable lifestyles. You think the Buddhist Monks in Nepal give a crap about American healthcare, technology or fashion? They have literally nothing but their family connections, their attunement to nature and their beliefs, and they're content with that. What about many of the aborriginals of Australia? Pakistan? And countless other countries.



Sorry but that's the firs time I've heard that. That's a simple and silly reference that you're attempting to use to label an entire population.






----




It's not just that I disagree, but your perspectives are entirely what I'm trying to expose. Yes we can have a great life here in the U.S., but we have many of our faults which we fail to point out. We have an obsession with exposing how foreign countries wrongly treat people because it helps us think we're better than everyone else. This leads to a very egotistical mentality and in fact, ends up with us imposing our cultural beliefs on everyone because we believe we're infallible.
 
America..love it or leave it...others are trying so hard to get in...let then take your place...

or.......

kick out all politicians and lawyers
 
I don't look down on other cultures because they don't coincide with mine.
I look down on other cultures when they are sexist, oppressively patriarchal, homophobic, misogynist, trapped in primitive and irrational practices, totalitarian, etc.
In the same way I look down on people from my own culture that exhibit such traits.
I'll always approach each individual as a case by case basis. No one is entirely a subject of their culture.
But I'll also never hold back from criticising a cultural practice or norm because of some misguided cultural relativism.
Cultural relativism is nonsense. There really are better ways of living and ensuring maximum well being for as many people as possible than others.

A real eye opener for me was considering ethics and culture through the "veil of ignorance".
How would I structure society if I had no idea who in that society I was going to be?
Once you start looking at societies and cultures in that way the objective wrongness of something like female genital mutilation becomes obvious (if you even have to think about such a thing being right or wrong).
Would I institute the practice of mutilating the genitals of half the population if I might end up in that population myself?
Nope.

We can talk about differences in culture without having to give every culture equal validity in all matters.
 
I did read the entire thread.



And I'm responding to "your side." "Your side" for this argument is that America is arrogant and basically bad. I never would have endorsed you avoiding any balance or nuance to your position in order to start a debate (which actually isn't a good idea for debating), but since you've chosen to do that, I have to respond to the position you're taking in this thread, because that's what you've given all of us to work with.



I know you're an American and that you've got some sort of ties to Pakistan; but you never specifically said your race or religion. You could be a white atheist whose step-father is Pakistani, or you could be a Pakistani-American Muslim.




This is what you said that set people off:

Now as far as women, it's just a matter of perspective. Women here aren't really treated any better. Just because we say we treat women better doesn't mean that's the case. Yes, in countries like Saudi and many other Arab countries, there are sadly some laws that favor men over women. But women at least aren't seen as sex objects like they are here. There's gender segregation, but the U.S. is equally as responsible (just not identical).


You suggest that conditions for women are just as good as they are in America and Western Europe. Possibly better because women "aren't seen as sex objects like they are here." That's the statement that many people, not just me, find objectionable.



I'm talking about modern day times. There is not one single modern-day Middle Eastern state besides Israel where religious minorities have places in parliament/congress.

And while this is a tangent, things weren't so rosy prior to 1967 either. There was the allegiance between the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Adolph Hitler:



...and there was the invasion of Israel in 1948 by Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. So it's simply inaccurate to say that Arab populations in the Middle East treated with Jewish minority populations well right up until the 1967 war. That's not accurate. That's all I'm going to say on the matter; this isn't a thread about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.



This is a total straw man argument. I'm not trying to "impose my cultural views on others" when I criticize intolerance in the modern Middle East. I'm totally happy with people of any race or religion; I'm not okay with cultures where it's considered socially acceptable to kill your daughter because she held a boy's hand. There's a difference.



The UK, Spain, Australia, Indonesia, etc don't have positive relations with Israel and they're targeted by Muslim extremists just as much. Mainstream Muslim populations don't have positive relations with Israel and they're the single biggest victim of Muslim extremist terrorism. Blaming Muslim extremist terrorism on our relationship with Israel would only make sense if we were the only target, or even the primary target, of Muslim extremist terrorism. We aren't.



Why do I need to go to the Middle East to know that the Muslim population in the United States is growing rapidly? And why does it make me "a true ignorant" to say that it's growing, and draw conclusions from that growth?

"Despite such difficulties, a comprehensive survey of American mosque leaders released Wednesday reveals that the number of mosques in the country has grown tremendously, with more than 900 new centers being established since 2000. Another finding from the survey reveals that compared to the turn of the millennium, fewer Muslims see America as 'hostile' to Islam today."

Islam In America: Mosques See Dramatic Increase In Just Over A Decade, According To Muslim Survey

A survey quoted later in that article says that the number of Americans attending services at mosques has grown by 30% over the past ten years. Doesn't sound to me like a mass-exodus out of the USA.
 
To be fair that could be due to more black people becoming muslim (like Mohamed Ali).
Muslim immigration could actually be going down while mosque attendence going up (although I don't actually think that's what's happening).



Absolutely. Mitlov and I may disagree on gun control but he's bang on here.
Objectively a culture than makes half the population wear a big sack when out and about is a worse place to be a woman than a culture that doesn't force that on women (all other things being equal which they never are).
It's not exactly rocket science is it?
 
I agree, it's not intolerant to say that there are cultures out there that do a lot of harm.
 
It's not due to conversion, but immigration. Conversion rates have been steady for twenty years, and can't be responsible for the 30% growth in American mosque attendance in the past ten years.

"The conversion rate per mosque has remained steady over the past two decades. In 2011, the average number of converts per mosque was 15.3. In 2000 the average was 16.3 converts per mosque."
 
However, in some cases the sack is a blessing, especially in the pub at closing time.

Americans don't have a infallibility complex, it's just that we're always right.
 
First off, Prior to 1948 when people talked about Palestinians, they were talking about the Jews living in the British mandate. The Arabs identified either as Syrians or Jordanians. The Arab Palestinian did not come into being until 1964 when the Egyptian Arafat began using the name as an excuse for his terrorist organization.

Children are not being killed daily by Israelis. Under Muslim rules, Xtians and Jews were Dhimmis.

Israelis did not 'take over' Jerusalem. They reacted to yet another war and did what countries have been doing since there has been countries. During a war, you push the ennemy back to give yourself a security buffer.

The Arabs sold the arid land to Jews.



And of course the poor innocent palestinians are angels.




Last year. And yes, I have family there.
 
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