The American Infallibility Complex

[heyheyitskk]

I understand that Israel is forcibly displacing Palestinians and taking the land. But to me the focus should then be on getting them to stop. I appreciate the history is important in that its the justification being used by the zionist elements in Israel if i've understood zionism right?

But, even with that in mind I still don't get why the history becomes the main focus point. It doesn't matter who has a more historic "right" to the land because, I'm assuming, there's no way to make either side leave short of killing them all. You can't just displace an entire population and dump them somewhere else. Fairly sure that's a really basic interpretation of Israel's formation in the first place?

If I'm right and neither side can be plucked up and dumped in another country on a whim then Israel's reclaiming law becomes a problem on that basis alone. Whether they're right that their ancestors owned the land or not is irrelevant.

This feels like a more complex, national version of reperations.

 

[JuggaloSoldier]

Interestingly enough, your unbiased opinion is what the majority of the Western mentality is against. When broken down to its most basic elements, it's as you just stated. It's not really that complicated but unfortunately to carry this debate with those who believe otherwise, these Palestine-Israel debates always end up becoming complicated.

 

[purplemoon0101]

Because history is the only solid claim Jews have to Israel. It's their "promised land". Promised to them by God. If we wipe away all the history. What we have are a bunch of refugees displaced by a global war playing the victim card to grab some land.

 

[hereforaparty]

But why should they? The modern state of Israel was forcibly created by the UN. As were most modern middle eastern states. The UK and US had a mandate to get it all set up and working properly. Unfortunately we didn't do a very good job and it's been a nightmare ever since.

 

[TheGirlFromIpanema]

I have issues with how Palestine conducts itself as well. Its hard to decry Israeli air strikes after they lob a few rockets at them. But since I don't kow enough about Hezbollah and their acceptance among palestianians at large I can't dog the whole group for their actions. Plus I can't really blame Hezbollah for what they do. They're doing what any group does when faced with the same level of opposition.

Nice to know my simplistic way of looking at the world worked for once though
edit: I will also add that I do have some sympathy with Israel and their position being bordered by nations that have expressed that they would happily kill them. Granted, it doesn't seem like Israel is free of blame for that but I get how it contributes to their attitude.

 

[goleafst]

Wikipedia has some decent information on the situation in Israel.

 

[Conoco]

The question is why does the US support the Israelis?

 

[LawC]

Three reasons:

1) The Israeli lobby is an incredibly powerful force in US politics.

2) Christian Zionism.

3) The US needs a strong ally in the Middle East.

 

[Alexandra009]

I would agree with the first two reasons. The third however is entirely optional and still begs the question why? Israel isn't the only US ally in the middle east. They're not even the only state receiving military aid. And most other Arab states are perfectly willing to do business with the US so long as the US keeps it's nose out of their internal affairs.

 

[tealtop1]

The USA also backs Saudi Arabia, which is very anti-Israel. It would be misleading to think of the situation in the Middle East as being two opposed camps. It's far more complicated than that.

 

[joedi]

I wasn't. Egypt's military is also part funded by the US.

 

[CubanMami]

Sorry if I was unclear. I wasn't trying to suggest that you thought that it was a simple situation. I was actually agreeing with what you said, just adding my own two penn'orth.

 

[chingchangchickenwang]

Now this is where I disagree with you. It's light years away from being at the "same level". I mentioned it before and I'll mention it again: disproportionate use of force. The Israeli military's being fed billions every year by the US and UK. They have the 2nd best air force in the world and the top intelligence agency. They're surrounded by people who hate them because of how they massacre the Palestinians daily.

So what came first? The chicken or the egg? Unfortunately people are fed two sides to the story. Westerners are typically taught to believe that the land rightfully belongs to those currently residing in Israel when in actuality, it was the Palestinians.

But as someone else asked, why does it matter who had the land before? You're right, it shouldn't matter. That land went back and forth between the hands of Muslims, Christians and Jews countless times. So that's not the problem. The issue's that they're forcibly murdering the same people who provided them safe refuge from Hitler and the most powerful Western nations are blindly supporting this.

 

[Amkii]

I was talking about the less savoury tactics used by Hezbollah, not the actions of the Israelis which are certainly out of proportion. Course, that's what happens when you attack someone much stronger than you, its suddenly reminded me of Georgia deciding it was a good idea to annoy Russia, but I understand the reasoning. Kinda like how I appreciate the taleban doing things like infiltrating the ANA/ANP before going shooting. It might not be cricket but its an understandable tactic.

Sorry if you knew that's what I meant and were just making another point about Israel but I took your post as mistaking who I was talking about in that specific sentence.

 

[MontyBurns]

Thanks for the clarification. I actually ended up thinking I misunderstood where you stand but just misunderstood your last post. In actuality, I don't even see Hezbollah as an equivalent force. And I believe you're referring to their guerrilla tactics. I'm in disagreement with the actions of our world's so-called leaders today, all of them. Everyone big leader's governed by money, there's no honor or integrity at their level.

 

[lateedawns]

Something for the others... this video was created by an organization of Israeli Jews:

Israel and Palestine, an animated introduction. - YouTube

 

[CaptainCaveman]

I am. It would of been so much easier to write that

I have quite a simple minded outlook on warfare where playing fair doesn't factor in very much. I empathise with the Hezbollah's position and understand their need to use things like human shield tactics, and I also get that Israel has a lot of equipment at its disposal and no reason not to use it.

I find it weird that I'm quite liberal on social policy but somehow avoided becoming your standard Guardian reader-esque anti-war type guy and have a really...pragmatic maybe? approach to international policy. My political compass is warped.

Anyway none of that has anything to do with where I stand on the conflict as a whole, they're just random musings about the killing each other side of things.

 

[kelbel]

Jewish Voice for Peace was created at Berkeley. They are one of the most virulent oppoinent of the exsitence of Israel. Period. As far as they are concerned, Israel should never have been created at all.

They are to be dismissed as easuily as if you had a group of Palestinians advocating against an Arab state in Gaza and the WB.

And the Billions you complain the US sends to Israel, it's mostly a grant to the US arms industries. The bulk of the aid has to be spent back in the US, mostly on military hardware.

 

[Willis]

No, they are surrounded by people many of whom are involved in trying to kill them and have been trying to get rid of them since before the state of Israel was even created. There are faults on both sides, but you persist in trying to paint a very simplistic 'goodies versus baddies' picture. Frankly, it's starting to sound a bit childish.

Nonsense. As has already been demonstrated, the leadership of the Arabs in the British Mandate of Palestine (as it was then) sided with the Nazis. While individual Arabs may well have been welcoming to Jewish refugees from Hitler, it certainly wasn't universal. Maybe it's time you stopped repeating that line, because it simply isn't true.

 

[ChristopheO]

We're obviously going to go in circles here regarding the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. You're all certainly entitled to your own beliefs and notions of history.