What is your opinion on the comment made today by a prominent clergyman...

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alterego

New member
...that the Pope is the Anti-Christ? By Anti-Christ he meant that the Pope had replaced Christ by claiming to be able to forgive the sins of mankind. The protestant clergyman attested that only God can forgive sins. Did God bestow special powers of divine dispensation to the Pope and indeed all Catholic Priests to forgive sins? If so, when did this occur and where is it recorded? I for one would like to think that the Catholic hierarchy and Priests can forgive me for my sins but have difficulty believing that one mortal human being can forgive the sins of another mortal human being.
Hobo, you're well named. It was opinions I was seeking not juvenile meaningless remarks. Someone actually answered,no opinion at all!! Why bother to respond if you have nothing to contribute? Some weirdos around, yes sirree Bob.
Hey, thanks to those of you who have opinions and have expressed them. That's all really wanted. However,I can't believe that there can be so many feeble minded and opinionless people on this site tonight. Regardless of how long the difference between the two denominations of Christianity has existed on this contentious issue and no matter who reiterated this dispute, what is your opinion on this subject? Do you have one? Maybe I was labouring under the misapprehension that the participants here were capble of reasoned, independant thought and could therefore form and express an opinion on this fundamental component of the Christian faith. Those incapable of such an super-human intellectual fete resort to silly and rude remarks to mask their benighted ignorance.
 
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catholic199_returns

New member
If the Pope is the Antichrist then he should not acknowledge Christ.

The Catholic Church is Christian...

as for the rest of your answer...



Scripture

I. Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins
John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, "as the Father sent me, so I send you." As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.

John 20:22 - the Lord "breathes" on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord "breathes" divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.

John 20:23 - Jesus says, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

Matt. 9:8 - this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to "men." Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles' successors still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors?

Matt. 9:6; Mark 2:10 - Christ forgave sins as a man (not God) to convince us that the "Son of man" has authority to forgive sins on earth.

Luke 5:24 - Luke also points out that Jesus' authority to forgive sins is as a man, not God. The Gospel writers record this to convince us that God has given this authority to men. This authority has been transferred from Christ to the apostles and their successors.

Matt. 18:18 - the apostles are given authority to bind and loose. The authority to bind and loose includes administering and removing the temporal penalties due to sin. The Jews understood this since the birth of the Church.

John 20:22-23; Matt. 18:18 - the power to remit/retain sin is also the power to remit/retain punishment due to sin. If Christ's ministers can forgive the eternal penalty of sin, they can certainly remit the temporal penalty of sin (which is called an "indulgence").

2 Cor. 2:10 - Paul forgives in the presence of Christ (some translations refer to the presences of Christ as "in persona Christi"). Some say that this may also be a reference to sins.

2 Cor. 5:18 - the ministry of reconciliation was given to the ambassadors of the Church. This ministry of reconciliation refers to the sacrament of reconciliation, also called the sacrament of confession or penance.

James 5:15-16 - in verse 15 we see that sins are forgiven by the priests in the sacrament of the sick. This is another example of man's authority to forgive sins on earth. Then in verse 16, James says “Therefore, confess our sins to one another,” in reference to the men referred to in verse 15, the priests of the Church.

1 Tim. 2:5 - Christ is the only mediator, but He was free to decide how His mediation would be applied to us. The Lord chose to use priests of God to carry out His work of forgiveness.

Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 - even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others.

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http://www.scripturecatholic.com/confession.html





CONFESSION


Jesus Christ gave his Apostles the power to forgive sins. The Sacrament is also known as the Sacrament of Conversion, Forgiveness, Penance, or Reconciliation.

During the persecution of the Roman Emperor Decius (249-251), many Christians left the Church rather than suffer martyrdom. The martyr St. Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage, allowed apostates the Sacrament of Confession, as recorded in his Letter De Lapsis (The Lapsed) in 251.

The sacrament involves three steps: the penitent's contrition or sorrow for his sins, the actual confession to a priest and absolution, and then penance or restitution for your sins. The experience leads one to an interior conversion of the heart. Jesus describes the process of conversion and penance in the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-24).

The penitent confesses his sins to the priest in the confessional, and the priest then gives absolution to the repentant soul, making the Sign of the Cross, and saying the words " I absolve you from your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." It is Christ Jesus through the priest who forgives your sins. As the penitent must make restitution or satisfaction for his sins, the priest gives a penance to the forgiven one, usually prayer, fasting, or almsgiving (1 Peter 4:8).

Confession gives one a wonderful sense of freedom and peace from the burden of sin. Sorrow, affliction, and a desire for conversion follow the remorse of sin in those with a contrite heart. Some believe we can confess our sins privately to God. But man is a social being. The humbling experience of unburdening your soul to someone, of exposing your weak nature, and then being accepted for who you are and what you have done by having your sins forgiven brings one an incredible sense of relief! The experience brings a sense of gratitude to our generous Lord for his love, compassion and mercy.

As one is to be in the state of grace before receiving Holy Communion, the child makes his first Confession before his first Communion, generally at the age of reason. Here are three Scriptural references on Penance (See also Matthew 16:18-19, Luke 24:46-47, Acts 2:38):
"When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic,
Child, your sins are forgiven..."
"But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins on earth," -
he said to the paralytic, "I say to you, rise, pick up your mat, and go home."
Gospel of Mark 2:1-10
"Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father who sent me, even so I send you.
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them,
"Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven.
If you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
Gospel of John 20:21-23
"And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation."
The Second Letter of Paul to the Corinthians 5:18

http://www.jesuschristsavior.net/Sacraments.html
 
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MyBallsYourChin

New member
I thought Mohamed was the Anti-Christ. Or was it Bill Hicks? I heard a preacher on the radio say Obama was the Anti-Christ. You religious people are kooky.
 
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Rebeckah

New member
First of all, an appeal to authority is a logical fallacy -- a stupid one. Who cares what a "prominent clergyman" claims. What does he really know?

Secondly thinking that anyone can "forgive your sins" is foolishness. If you do something wrong, learn from it and do better. And don't let any religious person tell you that you have to be miserable for not following their own, man-made rules. Particularly, don't let anyone tell you that it's your religious duty to make someone else miserable because they don't follow a bunch of man-made rules. If it isn't harming anyone else then just leave it alone.
 
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Marysia

Member
that it was stupid and someone seeking attention. he is obviously a man who would rather listen to t he ignorant anti-catholics rather than educate himself with the truth about the pope and the Catholic church.
 
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MissMouse

New member
>>The protestant clergyman attested that only God can forgive sins. Did God bestow special powers of divine dispensation to the Pope and indeed all Catholic Priests to forgive sins? If so, when did this occur and where is it recorded?<<

This is what the Catholic Church teaches:

"Only God forgives sins (Mk 2:7). Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, 'The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins' and exercises this divine power: 'Your sins are forgiven.' (Mk 2:5; Lk 7:48). Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name (Jn 20:21-23)." -- Catechism of the Catholic Church 1441
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P4C.HTM
 
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AlanH

Member
No human can forgive sins. Priests, Popes or other. BUT
The Catholic theology is that if you confess you are forgiven which is correct
See 1 JOHN 1:9 That needs no intermediary.
 
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Hobo

Member
Ian Paisley, has been calling the Pope, the anti christ, for near fifty years, and it aint bothered anybody, what makes you think that one more on the band wagon will make any difference.
 
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simonT

Member
It's their religion, they can make it up however they want.


they will probably say that Peter, as the first pope, was given this power, and so all popes have this power. In reality it is just a hierarchical power structure to help keep the sheep at the bottom in line.


But before the Protestants get all smug, they are doing exactly the same thing, rewriting the religion to suit their desires adn preconceptions. They just do it in different ways than the Catholics. This is why we have thousands of Protestant sects, all claiming that God and Jesus are just the way that they claim, and not the way that all the others claim.

Protestants tend to do a lot of judging of others and saying how God wants things to be. I thought that Jesus said that only God could judge? What happened to render unto Caesar? Why have so many Protestants rewritten these verses?
 
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RebeccaLaurie

New member
Yes the idea of vicarious sin (you are responsible for original sin--the sin of others over whom you had no control) and vicarious atonement (you can be absolved of your personal responsibility for your actions if you just believe) is "problematic" to say the least. Personally, I find it immoral.

As for the Pope, I don't care one way or another about religious doctrine. It's all based an myth and each sect makes it up as they go along.

However, I *do* think he's evil for covering up and aiding the pedophiles. I hope the attempt to arrest him and force him to stand trial in September is successful. He should be thrown in jail. They certainly have sufficient evidence against him now.

Regarding convicted and controversial Munich predator priest Peter Hullerman, the New York Times reports today on its front page that “the future pope not only led a meeting approving the transfer of the predator priest, but was also kept informed about the priest’s reassignment,” which directly contradicts earlier claims that Ratzinger knew nothing of the priest’s later whereabouts.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/04/01/letter-indicates-pope-knew-abuse/

http://www.newser.com/story/84231/pope-knew-of-us-deaf-boys-sex-abuse-did-nothing.html

Ratzinger handled, in secrecy, thousands of cases from 2001-05, when he was the global church’s ‘go to guy’ on abuse as head of the CDF

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/03/31/world/main6351687.shtml

Benedict will be in Britain between September 16 and 19, visiting London, Glasgow and Coventry. Lawyers believe that they can ask the UK's Crown Prosecution Service to initiate criminal proceedings against the pope, or launch their own civil action against him, or appeal to the International Criminal Court.

The pope would be unable to claim diplomatic immunity from arrest because he is not the head of a state recognised by the United Nations.
 
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Me

Active member
The idea that God, the Pope, and/or priests are the ones to forgive sins is absurd on its face. The only relevant party that should be forgiving anyone is the one who has been wronged.

God cannot be harmed, and it's none of the Pope's, or any other clergy's business.
 
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CatholicPhilosopher

New member
19
11 12 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be with you."
20
When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. 13 The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
21
14 (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
22
15 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.
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16 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."


From the 20th chapter of John - priests were given an instrumental power by Christ as He instituted there the sacrament of penance.




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MessengerofGod

New member
As you know, many (if not most) of the Popes of only a few centuries ago were super-evil and corrupt, pulling strings behind the scenes and swiftly disposing of anyone who challenged them.
By contrast, The Pope today couldn't take over a Baskin-Robbins.
I mean, seriously.
LOOK at him.
-_-

As far as forgiving sins goes, however, that's another matter entirely:
"On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”" -- John 20:19-23 (ESV)
The issue isn't so much that only God can forgive sins, because clearly Jesus is granting that right to His followers in the above passage. The issue is the way the Pope and Catholic priests in general act like such a thing applies only to them. It doesn't.
Also, in Revelation 1:5-6 (ESV) we see "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen." And in 1 Peter 2:9 (ESV) it says "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light." At first you might think they're only referring to Jew(ish Christian)s because of the use of words like "race" and "nation". But check out Romans 11:17 (I'll use the NLT here 'cos it phrases it a bit better): "But some of these branches from Abraham's tree--some of the people of Israel--have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God's special olive tree."
Now pay attention:
If Paul says we get the blessing of Abraham & co bestowed on us for being "grafted in" to the "tree"...
...and if Peter says that there's this "royal priesthood" and "holy nation" and stuff like that, and John (Revelation) uses similar phrases, then you look in the OT and you see it there too, such as Exodus 19:6...
...then that means all of us true believers are priests, not just some guy in a funny outfit or whatever. We are all priests and are allowed as close to God as the OT Temple priests were. The only difference is that for us it's more of a subtle, intimate, emotional connection as opposed to just serving Him because He's filling the room with His presence and you don't wanna get zapped.
There may be pastors to help do the "shepherding", ministers to preach and teach the less informed, and so on, but there are to be no more so-called "priests" 'cause we are all priests now and Jesus is our High Priest.
So umm...with all due respect the Pope's probably a nice bloke to have a beer and hang out flying a kite with or whatever but he's got no more genuine spiritual authority than me or any other random Christian. Not even if that stuff Catholics say about Peter and the whole "on this rock I will build my church" bit is true -- which it probably isn't (they probably twist it because they don't know any better).....
Incidentally the Roman Catholic Church is the church of Rome, obviously, but when you think about it that's a bit sad 'cos Paul wrote a letter to the church there when it was in its infancy (the book of "Romans" -- go figure) back before they became totally rubbish and got taken over by weirdos. If he ever found out what they've become he'd turn in his grave.
 
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Choirmom

New member
I heard this for years when I was brainwashed by fundamentalists. It's funny how members of all religions love to point out the fallacies of everyone else's beliefs, but refuse to see the fallacies of their own.
 
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CatherineW

New member
Catholic 'priests' and the pope CANNOT forgive sins; they are sinners just like the rest of us! I have not heard the comments to which you refer, but the clergyman was correct in that ONLY God can forgive sins, as he is the ONLY one without sin. Jesus Christ (God the Son) became the perfect sacrifice for sin, once and for all, when he died on the cross. Death could not hold him because he is sinless and did not deserve to die - death is the punishment for sin. Jesus Christ took the punishment meant for us, then rose again from the dead! It is only through faith in Jesus Christ that we can be forgiven and receive eternal life. We can go straight to God in prayer, through Jesus Christ - the ONLY mediator between God and mankind. We do not need human 'priests' to mediate for us - indeed, they cannot, as they are sinners too!
 
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spitfire

Member
Can't be. He doesn't fit the profile. Although he can be an antichrist (little "a") meaning that, although not the head honcho himself, he is false Christ. There are and will be plenty of those before the big "A" comes along. If you want to know more about the big "A", read the book of Revelation.
 
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