For all you whining about illegals taking jobs away from Americans... err... hate to break it to you... but there were not now nor were there ever busloads of young, bright Americans signing up to be hot-tar roofers.
As for those whining about less-talented or less-skilled illegals taking jobs away from skilled Americans... puhleeze... I've worked on literally dozens of roofing crews with both Americans and illegals.... the illegals are just as skilled if not more so... the big advantage of working with illegals was that they didn't bitch and moan every step of the way like most Americans do.
They just got on with the task at hand and did it with a good sense of humour - many of our foremen on the jobs hired illegals regularly - not because they were neccessarily cheaper - many of them made the same pay... but because they had better attittudes and were willing to work harder. Simple as that. I've never had better people working on sites with me. They didn't show up drunk or railed up on meth and they didn't have to take a smoke break every 10 minutes. If they didn' show up - they sent a replacement.
Everyone is so quick to point the finger at Mexicans yet no one wastes two seconds of thought on the employers that hire illegals over locals. Seems to me if the law actually came down hard on those who employ illegals then we'd see a rather big change in their hiring practices.
Anyone who has worked in agriculture/fields/farming knows full well the common tactics of employing illegal labor only to conveniently have the police/sheriff show up on payday prior to payment being handed out. It's text book illegal employment scamming. Not only do they not hire legal workers - the scam illegal workers out of their pay. America could easily do without these kind of people.
Are there more than one kind of people hiring illegals? Yes.
Is one better than the other? Yes.
One takes advantage of them and one just wants to get his job done without the bitching and moaning so present in the American labor force. For the first - I have no sympathy and these primarily seem to be in the agriculture industries and the cut-n-sew industries... the latter I have no problem with... I've worked for dozens of employers like this - and have seen first hand why they employ illegals.
Does this mean that there is a massive grey area in issues like this? Yes. Is there more than the simple right and wrong slots that most people subscribe to on an issue like this? Definitely.
I don't hold out much hope that this thread will become the massively polarized diatribe fest that most threads like this do. Most people seem to think in either black and white and have very little sophistication when looking at a very complex issue like immigration.
you are so full of it. i'll out work any illegal you place in front of me. i've done everything from lawn work ,roofing, ditch digging, drywall etc.... i have a college degree in nutrition and i can't find a good job in my field so i take on jobs and don't complain about it. there are americans that will work but you can't argue the fact that most employers that hire illegals do it because it saves them money. money is the root of all evil. i've said it before no problem with any race coming to america do it legally, learn our language,and put back into the community you are working in
has anyone paid attention recently? the population in the united states just hit 300 million people this year, and is predicted to hit 400 by about 2040. seems pretty crowded to me. we have environmental issues, startling rates of child poverty, a retirement system that will go bust, and it seems some people think that we should take in all the people we can conceivably cram (and I do mean cram) into the available landmass. people from other countries should remain in their countries, and improve their country. sorry, the motel's getting full. also, just to get my hand in, ILLEGAL. Thanks.
Classic Americana.
You have a college degree but you have to resort to digging ditches and drywalling? Seems to me you need to suss out some work in your field and stop taking jobs away from illegals.
Did you not read my post?
It sure didn't say what you're implying it did. Go back and read what I posted and try to comprehend it. Then come back and post.
I didn't think this was a race issue actually.
Fruedian slip on your part?
Until you can point out an actual law that says people have to speak English in America - I think your langauge argument is a tad flawed.
As well, that many illegals spend a good amount of money in the communities where they live (no one is feeding them for free or giving them a place to live rent free or letting them hop on the bus free) I think your whole 'putting back into the community' argument is tripe also.
A bunch of crap, how did the roofs get tarred before the massive invasion of illegals?
The truth is, there are not busloads of Americans willing to work for less than minimum wage...
Again, I really do not care if they are talented or hard working.
I am sure there are plenty of rapists, pimps, and murderers who are talented and hard working but they are still criminals just like illegal immigrants.
Again, I am sure many criminals make good workers.
The issue is not whether illegal immigrants are good workers, but that they are illegal.
Yes, it would.
And I agree. I think anyone who hires an illegal immigrant should be punished severely. As long as illegals know they can come to the U.S and get jobs, they will do so.
Once we take away the lure that brings them here, we can figure out what to do with every illegal currently here.
Again, I agree that anyone hiring illegals should be punished.
But I do find it silly that illegal immigrants expect to get paid. The main reason they are hired is their illegal status which allows the employer to treat them like slaves as opposed to citizens.
I find it hard to pity them though, when they are coming uninvited into my "home" and flouting my rules.
Every wonder why illegals do not complain?
It is not a virtue so much as a necessity..Sweat Shop workers did not complain, nor did slaves.
have tried to obtain a job in my field but would you take on the reponsibilty of a supervisor with the pay = to that of which oversee? i have red your post an you are one of those that see the good in all . that's one of the things that's wrong with this country. a criminal is a criminal and should be treated as one. " kill'em all and let god sot them out". why do i take jobs not in my field simply to pay the bills. what's your take on this? i've done work at this apartment building were most of the residents are russian jews< would'nt care what nationality it was> who came to this country at ages ranging from 60-65. they never worked in this country but they are collecting social security and have full medical insurance. i think this is wrong irregardsless of nationality
By crews of whiney, meth addled Americans who took cigarette breaks every ten minutes and bitched and moaned their way through day.
But... are you ready for it?!?!?
There are busloads of American employers willing to hire illegals for less than minimum wage. If the illegals couldn't get employment here because the penalties were so harsh on those who employ them... chances are... they wouldn't come. But there are no such penalties in place... and if they are... they are rarely if ever handed out to the letter of the law. This why in the garment industry they simply work in the fee's associated with being busted employing illegals as part of the hard costs of the business.
Again - you must care. You posted a response.
Niiiice. Nice way to tar eveyrone with the same brush. Guilt by association tactic. Hmm.... seems to me you conveniently forgot to tar the Americans who employ illegals. Oh how convenient.
See above.
Ahh.... if only it were that simple. If it were. America wouldn't have the problems it does now would it? No. Seems to me you have a severe case of black and white-itis. You need to get your myopia checked out. Soon you'll be typing by brail.
Good. So sit down and write your congressman.
That you find it silly that illegal workers expect to get paid only says volumes about yourself. I think you need to go and read up on the definition of slavery... it's a fair bit different than what we're talking about here. Comprehend the difference between the two and then come back.
Again - less interenet forum whining and more congressman writing.
err... is that supposed to be the brilliant end to your post?
The point is a moot point Sherlock. That doesn't make the pracitce of it any more acceptable. That doesn't make it any more morally correct. It doesn't do anything really. It's more of beating the obvious to death.
Sweet Jesus.
Given your spelling and graofftopicr... it's not surprising you haven't got a job in your chosen field. Give me a minute to sort your post out and I'll respond.
how about up yours this is'nt a english class. i am not in my field because of the pay. i finished with a 3.49 gpa. you are intitled to your oppinion and i will respect that but if you want to attack me personally don't do it online nut up be a man respect my oppinion or choose a spot and leap froggy. there is nothing between us but opportunity.
Does that work well in your job interviews?
Hmmm... not working in your chosen field? I can't imagine why.
Congrats on your GPA.
Relax tiger.
I posted in response to your post that took me a minute to get through because of bad graofftopicr and spelling. No one else wrote that you did... so don't get your panties knotted because I told you it was going to take me a minute to get through it before I could respond.
Ok a few things people don't know about illegal immigration:
Go to any DES (Department of Economic Security) office in Phoenix on any given day at any given time and the waiting room will be at least seventy percent Latino. They work but many also know how to play the system.
For most jobs they are not direct competition, however, they lower median wages and other standards that are used for government funding. In states with high immigrant populations academics, wages, and requirements to qualify for state or federal benefits will be much lower.
Many people living near the border in rural areas hide in their homes when they see people crossing as they may be drug smugglers or coyotes (immigrants that traffic in immigrants). They are heavily armed and known to shoot just because you saw them.
Coyotes: These people charge their countrymen for passage across the border and may also provide false documentation to help them start a new life however there's a price. Immigrants are routinely extorted, enslaved, killed or held hostage by these human trafficers.
1.Your a moron, I am sure the majority of American workers are not whiney nor meth addled who bitch and moaned all day...
When did I say their employers were not criminals either?
No, I care about illegal immigration..Not whether they are hard working or talented...
What the hell are you talking about? Is your head stuck so far up your rear that you cannot even comprehend simple sentences?
Every illegal immigrant is by definition, illegal.
As in, criminals...
Your argument that they are hard working and talented is irrelevant.
Pretty sure you meant "painting everyone with the same brush", although I can see how you would make the mistake as you are an arrogant moron. You accuse me of painting everyone with the same brush when you are accusing every American construction crew of being meth addled, cigarette smoking whiners..
And of accusing everyone else on MAP aside from yourself(of course) of being unable to comprehend "sophisticated" topics such as immigration.
Not only are you arrogant, your a hypocrite.
When did I say that?
You are trying to argue that because illegal immigrants may be talented and hard working that their illegal status does not matter..but it does.
When you have a serial killer, do you take into consideration his work habits and talent or do you focus on the issue at hand which is the crime?
I have...Have you?
I find it silly for illegals to expect payment simply because they have no means of enforcing it....They have no government support, union support, etc...
When did I say slaves=illegal immigrants...I simply compared the two groups due to the similarities between the two..
Again, why are you whining about other people "whining"...
If you don't like whining, then why are you doing it?
That makes no sense..Your sentence should be "The point is moot Sherlock"
And no it is not moot..Your entire argument is based on the belief that illegal immigrants are harder working and more talented than their American counterparts...
However the only reason they may be harder working is their illegal status, remove that and they will swiftly adopt American work habits...They are not hard working because they choose to be, but because they have to if they wish to work..
You are essentially praising them for being hard working, in the same way that you would praise slaves for being hard working... Being a hard worker is only a plus if you choose to be as opposed to being forced.
P.S- Only reason I am being critical of your graofftopicr and sentence structure is because you have repeatedly done the same to other posters in this thread...and it annoys me when people put on their "Graofftopicr & Spelling Police" Uniforms...
Are you honestly saying that people who enter a country illegally are the same as murderers, rapists and serial killers? .... Seriously?
I'm sorry, but I think the time for intelligent conversation is long since past if you believe this.
Also:
"tar someone with the same brush
- to believe wrongly that someone or something has the same bad qualities as someone or something that is similar. I admit that some football supporters do cause trouble but it's not fair that we're all being tarred with the same brush. (usually passive)"
From http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/tar+with+the+same+brush
It's a perfectly well used idiom - calling someone an 'arrogant moron' because they used a phrase you weren't familiar with is a bit harsh.
Coming from you... you can be sure that I'll greave over your amatuer attempts at insults on long winter evenings.
Jeez - do try to keep up.
Good for you. Then it'd help if you actually understood something about the issues involved in illegal immigration.
Now now tiger... don't get your shirt up so fast. If you can't deal with what's posted then you know very well you can quit posting at any time.
And then you woke your silly ass up (or not) and realized that the issue is far more complex than that.
Try again genius. Your reading comprehension is at an all time low.
My argument is not that they are hard working. I'm not pro illegal alien. Do try to employ whatever power of discernment you might have when you read what I post. Just because one states factors or issues related to illegal aliens doesn't mean that one is pro illegal alien.
Again - it appears that you're incapable of anything more than polarized discussion. It fits well with your track record on this forum.
Again - I guess there is no shortage of stuff to grieve about on long winter evenings. Woe is me.
Obviously the whole tongue-planted-firmly-in-cheek aspect of the meth addled comment flew right over your pretty little head.
As did the idiom I used. It is correct.
Look it up and find out how silly you look.
That's not an accusation against MAP as a whole. It's an observation based on these type of threads. Which is something you happen to be proving with your ever more silly posts.
The topic of immigration has a neccessary complexity that is only denied by those who aren't clued up enought to understand that polarized conversations on such topics really go nowhere. If you can't understand that concept then refrain from posting on it.
That's not what I'm saying at all. Again - I'm not pro-illegal alien. I've simply spent plenty of time working and living in a state that has had to deal with illegal immigration for much longer than much of the US. California. Additionally I've lived in other countries that have similar problems with immigration and have seen these trends in illegal immigration repeatedly. I'm intimately familiar with many of the components and factors that make up illegal immigration. Discussing those factors do not in themselves make one any more or less pro illegal immigration than your sophomoric attempts at insults make you look clever.
Again you're limited by your polarized view of the issues involved. Yes obviously that they are illegal is an issue. Go back and read genius... I never said it wasn't... however it's not the ONLY issue. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Less time on trying to come up with clever comments and more time reading on the subject methinks.
Yes I have... but have you... really?
People all over the world who are victimized often have no means of enforcing much of anything that will result in an end to their vicitmization. That alone doesn't make it any less morally reprehensible when they are taken advantage of. I suggest you get out of your village more often and perhaps learn a thing or two about immigration issues. Your views on this are symptomatic of your general myopia on the topic as a whole.
Again - one more polarized wonder boy.
Maybe you should think out the words you choose more carefully. Making a comparison between the two is a silly choice in many respects as the factors betweent the two are rather different. It doesn't serve to move the conversation forward... but then again - why change your tactic now anyhow?
err... because it's relevant to the discussion?
But hey don't let that get in your way or anything.
No it's not. Go back and read again. When you can manage to comprehend what I've said then perhaps I might take your drivel seriously. Never once have I stated that illegal immigrants were 'more talented'. If I have please qoute it... but as usual with your lot... you'll dodge this like a rat terrier dodges a kick from a passer by.
Can you back this up with anything more than just your absurd assumption?
I doubt it. I certainly wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it.
You power of comprehension is appalling. I didn't praise slaves for being hard working nor is that what is implied and you might realize that if you weren't completely warping the context of what I've said to suit your myopic stance (yet again). Come back to reality.
I could care less what you're critical of. When you can actually consider more than your own myopic viewpoints in thread then perhaps I'll consider it. But until they you've been relegated to the clown-shoe in cakehole category.
Enjoy.
No, what you don't like is illegal immigrants of a specific flavour.
I've read the burglary analogy, and it's beyond off-base and inapplicable to this situation. Our country has one big ass invitation sitting rifght outside of NYC
********. Canadians come in, speak English, look American and are easily assimilated. Mexicans don't look American, speak Spanish, and have cultural traditions which are markedly different from our own. That's racism. It's racist when you threaten to close one border and not another for the same behaviour. It's rascism to make English the "official language" of a city (a proposal regularly rejected by the Congress, by the way). It's racist to make the landlords in a city act as immigation officers only when it comes to someone with an accent of a specific type.