Bush Attacked

@aikiwolfie: Patriotism is very important if we have any hope of preserving the liberties America was founded on. People like Nathan Hale (American spy in the Revolution) illustrate this so well. Without people like him to fight against tyranny, etc. we might as well be anarchists or communists. Patriotism is NOT a tool for the government (though they try to use it that way, I will admit); it is a safeguard against anyone who would attempt to take our freedoms away, including the government. To quote the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

THAT, my friend, is what patriots fight for, not for any one government, president, or piece of land.
 
Edit: spin said it better haha.

But regardless, I dont want anyone assaulting my president, sorry. I dont care if he is the biggest douchenozzle of all time! Its disrespectful to him, and to the US people.
 
Can't believe they let a Muslim in wearing shoes. Got off lightly if you ask me.

It was a joke, get over it!
 
So what you're saying then is that it isn't George Bush that is to blame for the whole Muslim world hating America but the American peoples? After all the government in the USA is operating with the sole consent of the people. If not then why did he hang on for another full term and where are all the patriotic Americans taking a stand and defending your civil liberties?

At the end of the day their are no Americans willing to take a stand against their government. Such a thing would be condemned as un-patriotic and the guilty would be labeled terrorists. George Bush said it himself. "You're either with us or against us".

Even in this thread their are people siding with Bush purely because "he's their president". Sorry but the sort of patriotism you dream of doesn't exist in America. It didn't stop Bush stealing his first term in office and it didn't stop him sending American troops into an illegal war against a nation that posed absolutely no military threat to the US and it didn't stop Cheney, Rumsfeld and Bush profiteering from the war and handing out contracts to their cronies.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Just a shame really that America doesn't see the rest of the world as being equal.

What does communism have to do with anything?
 
Yeh i wouldnt hate on Bush/Blair on their own. Its more to do with the way the world works. Its more to do with the capital elite class who operate above and beyond the political movements we see and vote for and its beyond national boarders.

These rich few take and run in the dark with no real regards to any patriotism or national identity. All that matters is money money money and they really will squash millions of people to get it. Its happened time and time again, they must laugh out loud when they see all the minions joining up to fight for them.
 
I'm not saying anything at all about Bush particularly, I'm arguing with your definition of patriotism.




Take a look at this part of the Declaration (part of what I quoted earlier);

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."

America is nowhere near bad enough to need another revolution. It's way better than most other countries out there, that's for sure. However, I would like to point out that there are some people willing to take a stand on political issues, and I believe that you could call this "standing against the government". I would like to clarify that the government is not inherently our enemy. It's gotten messed up in many ways, but it's intended to be "by the people, for the people".



IIRC, the people you are referring to did not say they agree with what Bush has done/how he has done things, but that it was disrespectful of that fellow to throw his shoes at him; I totally agree with this. He is our elected president, and as such deserves a measure of respect. Kind of like how, in the bible, David refused to kill Saul because he was "The Lord's anointed". Though granted, you could probably argue whether Bush is the Lord's anointed or just the people's anointed.



I've seen it firsthand in at least a few people. I don't say it's super common, but it definitely exists.



Whether or not it exists, and whether or not is has always stopped certain things that you believe should not have happened are two different arguments.



My point in bringing up communism is simply that the patriotism you seem to despise is necessary to preserve personal liberties, otherwise what do we have to keep from drifting into something like communism or dictatorship? I'm curious; you make it clear that you don't like the American government and that you have a, shall we say, "cynical" view of patriotism. Can you show me a country that you would rather live in (scenery and such aside )?
 
How exactly can you be disrespectful to a man that has reduced your country to ruins? And you can argue with my definition of patriotism if you like. It doesn't change the fact that the American people allowed George Bush to steal his first term in office and did nothing to stop it from happening. The patriotism you dream of doesn't exist.

Honestly the USA is already run by dictators. It's run by a political elite. It's practically impossible to win a US election without being bankrolled into the white house. And then of course you need to pay out to your backers.

So why bring the communists into the discussion? Lets look at a communist state. China for example. The Chinese are every bit as proud to be Chinese as an American is to be American. It's still a communist nation. How does patriotism halt the march of communism?
 
Wolfie, you seem to have ignored my specific points and simply restated your feelings about the president, patriotism, etc. (which I have already answered if you will carefully read my previous post). You also left my question about which country you would rather live in than America unanswered. Lastly, you say "Chinese are just as proud to be Chinese as Americans are to be American. How does patriotism halt the march of communism?" I was under the impression that we were discussing American patriotism, not Chinese patriotism or universal patriotism. I'm patriotic for my country because I believe in what it stands for. I'm assuming the same goes for the Chinese. Since someone who would prefer a communist state along the lines of China would be unlikely to be very patriotic about America, I rest my case that American patriotism is a safeguard against communism, among other things.

P.S. I wrote all this in kind of a hurry, so if any of it seems rambling or unclear let me know and I'll try to clarify it later.
 
LOL I don't live in America and wouldn't want to. So you want to split hairs about what it means to be patriotic? How is it different for some in China than it is in the USA? Perhaps you would just like to think it's different otherwise you'd have to admit patriotism is what keeps the dictators in power. It blinds people to the truth and even when their eyes are open they will side with say a bad American just to oppose a good communist.

Patriotism is a tool for leaders to use to encourage others to die for their cause.
 
*sigh* Okay, to be patriotic is to be proud of your country. As I said before, I am proud of America because of what it stands for. If I lived in China (and considered China my country) I would not be patriotic because I do not agree with communism, etc. I think this demonstrates quite clearly that while patriotism can be simply defined as being proud of your country, a patriotic American and a patriotic Chinese stand for very different things. As for your comment that "patriotism is a tool for leaders to use to encourage others to die for their cause", you obviously have done no research on America's leaders and patriots. People like George Washington, who was the leader and yet was out there on the battlefield risking his life just like the lowest soldier.
You say "they will side with a bad American just to oppose a good communist". I think you need to consider that if this person is going to be in power, the "bad American" might be a better choice than a "good communist" if you care about personal liberties.
 
Aiki, you seem to think patriotism has something to do with the government? Not really... It has to do with the country and beliefs that it was founded on. And like I said, as sad as it is that Bush is the representative of my country, it doesnt change the fact that he is.
 
Well without a government to support and protect like a human shield you'd be an anarchist. Which is apparently a bad thing for a patriot.
 
oh lawdy, of course the ruling elite is out on the battle field, how could we forget?
 
No I haven't. George Washington is a long time dead if I'm not mistaken.


Really? Are you sure? The last I checked the remaining communist states weren't running around the globe starting wars. In fact China has managed to remain communist and reform not only it's political structure but also it's economy as well. China has a booming economy. The democratic west doesn't. In fact our very liberal free economy almost entirely imploded.
 
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