parents and non parents.

Ah. In which case I respect the position completely but its not one I share. Its also one I don't think either of us is likely to change our opinions on



Fair shout. However doesn't it then also depend why you move away? Again assuming this thread is about all parentless people and not just a bundle on Blade thread then I can use myself as an example. I've moved away from kids a couple times. Not to the point of sprinting across the room to avoid them or anything, but if one comes towards me like he/she expects something I tend to move away or lift my legs onto the chair or whatever. That's not because I don't like the child as much as I worry about being drooled on or expected to play which is something I feel incredibly awkward about in a social setting. Perhaps that's still comparable, but I feel its an understandable reason at least.



Which is fair, but I wasn't replying to you purely to defend Blade. The comment, I believed perhaps wrongly, was about people generally not liking people around small children which includes me so I was writing to defend and explain myself.

The point of this thread seems to have very quickly descended into an attack on Blade individually with a fair few people completely missing the point of various arguments being made. Aaradia repeatedly claiming Blade compared the opposition she's faced to the hate LGBT people do despite that not being the case is one example, people jumping on the holocaust being mentioend and missing the reason why it was used is another.

I see some very good points being made in this thread, but I also see it trending ever more towards "someone disagrees with us in the majority, quick! Attack!" as well.



I'm cool with saying that wasn't the best move ever.



It makes sense I can't argue with that last bit really. Hopefully I've understood your points this time and my replies aren't wild tangents
 
Devil's advocate for a second: Why should the fact someone finds a view offensive be a reason to change that view?
 
Humanity needs more people like Blade, there's too many of us.

If I were more of a selfless humanitarian, and could resist the temptation to lob biological grenades at the future, I'd definitely refrain from breeding.

On the holocaust, I'd think that good historians would have well-researched sources - facts, figures, testimony etc., but I'd be very suprised if they would claim to have the same understanding as someone who lived through it. To say otherwise would appear to me as an emotional deficit and lack of empathy.
 
Did I say it was?


As I see it we shouldn't measure ourself against how we act when we get things right but how we respond when we get things wrong.

It's easy enough to hold certain views but express them in a half decent way, yes some views are just down right offensive but not all.

When dealing with this type of subject matter if you say something and you upset someone then it's not too hard to express yourself in a more cordial manner.

Not to mention to express regret and having caused upset, even if you don't think that person should be upset you should at least recognise that they are and that you may be partly responsible.
 
You're cool lefty. This is what discussions (not arguments) are about.

And it also makes people aware when they are not clear in a good way rather than going completely on the offensive.

It's a big personal pet peeve of mine that people can whinge about problems in their life but not do anything constructive about fixing it but instead continue to moan about it. So that's sort of where "you got a problem, then do something about it" comes from. And I understand that people may not share my views on that self improvement part - in the end this is a relatively very minor thing as it's only effecting the person with the higher blood pressure.



This is the only bit I'll quote mostly for additional clarification. This sort of thing regarding reacting to things being forced on you is a grey area and very hard to judge what is acceptable and unacceptable responses. You are correct in that there is a difference between genuine dislike about something and a simple sense of being uncomfortable. If someone has good control over their reactions it can be hard to tell them apart. I think clear communication can play a bit part but what you really want to avoid is any kind of knee-jerk overreation.

So let's use you as the example above. The kid was moving towards you and you moved out of the way. If the parent ask you "why did you move out of the way?" a reasonable response might be something like "Sorry, I just don't have much experience with kids, I didn't know what to do". An unacceptable response might be "I don't like kids".

Are you really "sorry" like you said in the acceptable example above - perhaps not. But that's when you have to balance what is socially acceptable.

So yeah, even more of a grey area.
 
oh I am?

The word prejudice refers to prejudgment: i.e. making a decision before becoming aware of the relevant facts

I know why I dont like babies and small kids. And it is because they have characteristics that while its not their fault they have them, it is what it is.

For example, babies are boring, they poop, diapers, bodily fluids, I like my sleep and so I wouldnt want to be around babies because of what babies do. I also dont like the smell. Even when they are clean, that `kid smell".

Also messy. I cant stand being around when they eat too. Same with toddlers. It seriously makes me literally nauseous. Because messy.

Toddlers have no concept of bodily personal space. I dont like the asking why at everything. I dont like it when they run around and parents make no effort to control them (if you look up why some restaurants are banning kids)

This isnt prejudice. It is what it is.
 
I know it's been said but when I hear someone say "you'll understand when you have kids" it's not about the practical hassle, as great as that is, it's about the emotional connection to your child.
 
This is where I feel a huge part of the thread has failed. No one said you would have the same level of understanding. The point was that with enough research you could presumably have some appreciation for what holocaust victims went through. The point of this thread was that someone claimed those without children could have no inclination whatsoever of what being a parent involves.

Everyone seems to be looking at this as a black and white, either extreme of the spectrum thing when the whole point was about somewhere vaguely in the middle of it.



No but I enjoy talking about offense and was hoping to get a chance to link a Stephen Fry clip if I could steer it in that direction. I'm a terrible person like that



Agreed



Somewhat disagree. If someone is upset and you truly believe its an overreaction on their part or "their problem" as it were, then I don't really believe in apologising for it for the sake of politeness.



What else are you going to do on a Thursday night? I'm not sure if I said argument in my other post but I have a habit of using the word. Sorry if I did. I use it to mean debate or conversation, not always as an actual argument



I actually completely agree with the "put up or shut up" type approach to things. Its the very depressing thing aobut being British is listening to people constantly moan about things but not do anything about it

But where that changes is in cases of things like racism or homophobia. Probably because I beleive its such a deep rooted part of someone that I'd rather have a, I feel, more practical goal of having them kepp shtum rather than try to change them. Also because with things like Homophobia and the fact LGBT right are such an important issue at the moment I'd rather focus on combatting it to the point of getting equality laws sorted rather than combat people's personal feelings. Obviously that sort of stuff doesn't apply to people having a problem with kids because the same issues don't exist. I went horribly off on a tangent there and it was completey irrelevant. Sorry about that. But I put effort into writing it and don't want to delete it



That makes sense. But then are we talking less about whether not liking kids is a bad thing and more about what is seen as socially acceptable and what would be better manners in how you express it? I feel like the two are very different things.
 
It can mean a little more today.



So you can't separate the individual from the bodily functions?

You don't have a child and so sleep isn't really going to be a factor.

Big people do all of the above, excluding the nappies, so you are automatically demonstrating a certain attitude to all younglings regardless of their level of development and their relative position to you in your life or what they may actually be like.

You expect them to have those attributes and so have a negative reaction to them regardless of the individual child.

In short you prejudge.





So a recurring theme we see here is mess and disorder and not necessarily children. It's muck you can't deal with, kids are just the most frequent image of that in day to day life.



So this is in part about parenting skills and not the kids per se? And again it seems to be about a lack of control and structure.



It is because you apply certain stereotypical traits to every individual you meet and act from that and not what you actually have before you.

You also have many instances of disorder that you have mentioned and not necessarily the children themselves but what they may generate.

Of course none of this has really touched on your comments about the parents themselves, lest not forget all the labels you were throwing around about people with kids, what was it again? Breeders?


Hooking up with those child free sites would give someone a way to feel accepted in a group for what would be otherwise socially awkward attitudes, labelling the other side would be another way of reinforcing that sense of belonging.
 
This is actually a good suofftopicry of why I don't enjoy being around small kids either. Other than the kid smell thing because I've never noticed

The only thing I'll add is that I agree with the dislike over actual characteristics being different from prejudice, or the more common way we use discrimination.

If anyone can honeslty say there isn't a sub seciton of society they don't like because of characteristics (chavs, hipsters, conservatives, liberals, rednecks, gypsies, bieber fans) then I will be very very surprised.
 
Yeah, genocide will polarize people like that.

Maybe a better example would be living in Tuscanny vs. having a timeshare villa there, or something like that. It's a teensy bit less emotive.
 
Blade's contention is that parents that say that childless people cannot understand what it is like being a parent are wrong. She brought up historians researching and understanding the Shoah. She is wrong on both counts. There are things that can't be understood fully unless you have lived them.
 
With respect mate, read what I wrote again. No one was saying you can fully understand it. The point for contention was whether its possible to have some inclination of what being a parent is like, in much the same was as with research you can have some idea of what holocaust survivors went through.



I agree, but if people can't get over their knee jerk emotional reaction to seeing the holocaust enough to maintain reading comprehension then they shouldn't be posting anyway.
 
I can honestly say that.

But I don't care that people do have prejudices (I'm not even prejudiced against prejudiced people ). It is a bit weird that people would set up a community based on that prejudice though. Is there a forum where people who hate old people, because they listen to the TV too loud and fart every time they get up, get to have a good whinge about it?

Not having kids gives you years' more time to concentrate on making your own life better, why would you spend those precious years yakking-on about the fact you don't want kids? Shouldn't you be getting rich, or curing cancer or something?
 
Oh I completely agree with that. I've said before that facebook groups are basically nothing but a back slapping circle jerk
 
Nope. Pretty much par for the course with small kids



oh please Big people know about personal space. I can have a adult sitting on me without worrying that they will empty their bowels in a diaper while sitting on me. They can usually control their drools. They chew with their mouths closed. They dont run around and scream in restaurants. They dont usually have tantrums. "I WANT xyz...MMMMOOOMMMMIIIEEE!"

Unless they have a medical issue, which is the minority of adults, they arent like kids.



oh please



Kids are not full of nothing BUT muck, older kids especially. because they have learned to do the stuff I just described. But even the behavior of older kids sometimes they just do what they like too. For example, my dad had over his niece that he hadnt seen in 25 years (long story) but her 2 boys 9 and 11 just ran all around the yard, going in and out the house, ripping the hat off my dad's head (complete stranger now, they did this a bunch of times) looking for and frightening my cat, and while their mom said its not right, the only thing she really did was hug them. Yeah its poor parenting I cant stand, but even some older kids I really dont like either.

But generally I like older kids.



In part. But - we dont understand anything.



well duhh. I can assume, that a baby who cant control themselves, will be a messy eater and might crap in my lap if I hold them.



Yeah the breeder. The BNP (breeder not parent)
 
im not fond of conservatives either or the religious to be honest.





what about people whoset up groups based on they are parents and they loooove kids? They're ok but childfree groups are not?
 
I think there is a difference between groups that relate through like or love of something and those that relate as a result of a common dislike of something.

Both have a common interest but the reasoning behind them differ.
 
So does that mean you equally dislike people with spinal injuries, cognitive dysfunction, severe learning disabilities, mental illness, severe Crohn's disease, dementia, cancer and anything else that inhibits their ability to either control their bowels or behaviour?
 
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