Question about Jesus and the messianic Prophecy?

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rupert

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Ok, so the proof that Jesus is the Messiah is that, according to the New Testament, He fulfilled all the messianic prophecies, right?

Well, this time of the year has got me thinking about the Christmas story. The Gospel of Matthew gives the genealogy of Jesus, and says he is descended from King David. This is one of the messianic prophecies, being in the line of King David. One minor issue: the line of David runs through Joseph not Mary. Joseph is not Jesus real father, so his bloodline does not run through Jesus. So how is Jesus related to king David, and if he isn't doesn't that mean he didn't fulfill one of the messianic prophecies, ergo he is not the true Messiah?
@Devoted- You say both Mary and Joseph are descended from King David, where are you finding that information? Matthew is the only gospel that mentions the genealogy of Jesus and it only accounts of Joseph being related to David. Which makes sense, as the Jews did heritage through the father not the mother. And supposedly Jesus does not have an earthly father.
djmantx- so what you are saying is that it is a prophecy that can't literally be fulfilled so it is to be accepted as fulfilled anyway?
Doesn't sound that logical.
I am looking for thoughts on the matter that are logical, and actually make some sense like many of the answers given. Please don't try to feed me this "My ways are not your ways" line you would give o kids in your youth group. If the prophecy can not literally be fulfilled, then it is wrong. Period. What is the point of "God" outlining prophecies then just rejecting them as not important becuase they can't be fulfilled without making Him wrong?
Also, the born to a virgin prophecy has a lot to do with what translation is used for "virgin."
 
The word "Christ" comes from the Greek translation of the Hebrew Messiah, which means "anointed". It became the name proper to Jesus only because he accomplished perfectly the divine mission that "Christ" signifies. In effect, in Israel those consecrated to God for a mission that he gave were anointed in his name. This was the case for kings, for priests and, in rare instances, for prophets. This had to be the case all the more so for the Messiah whom God would send to inaugurate his Kingdom definitively. It was necessary that the Messiah be anointed by the Spirit of the Lord at once as king and priest, and also as prophet. Jesus fulfilled the messianic hope of Israel in his threefold office of priest, prophet and king.
 
Rupert, The prophesies are born of a virgin and born in the house of David. If this is not possible then the prophesy of Isaiah is wrong. Lineage is counted from the Father, So are we saying God and Isaiah are wrong?
No Christ was accepted as a son of David, this was never contested. There is no argument.
If the prophesy is born from a son of David then the Messiah could not have been born of a virgin.
So the prophesy could not be fulfilled.
God is wiser than man. Isaiah surely understood as did the Jewish followers of Christ.
 
He fails the messianic prophecies. They include:

Being a man, not part deity.
Becoming king of Israel.
Returning all the Jews to Israel.
Building the temple.
Bringing peace to the world.

These are hard messianic requirements, not some mistranslation of the word meaning 'young woman' into the word virgin, or some out of context rubbish about him riding a colt that had not been ridden before.

Strangely enough the NT confirms that Jesus met hundreds of these questionable requirements and other real requirements none of which could be confirmed 10 years later when the Jesus myth was being inflated.

All the messianic requirements that could be confirmed 10 years, or more, later Jesus totally fails to fulfill.


Despite all messianic prophecies saying that these thing would happen in his lifetime Christians hand wave these things away saying that Jesus will be back to complete these minor tasks Real Soon Now.

And so, back to your point. If Jesus is the son of Joseph and Mary, and so a descendant of David then he is a man - he lives, he dies, he stays dead. He fails a bunch of messianic prophecies and is clearly a false messiah.

But early Christians played a shell game here, not only is the Jesus pea under the Joseph shell - making him of the right blood line, but he is also under the God shell - so he is a demi-god, and so can come back to tidy up the loose ends.


Like all shell games it is a total con.
 
The blood line of Yeshua's mother goes back to David, just as Joseph's blood line does. Both are spoken of in the Gospels.

D1
 
answer: according to the ONLY prophecies about the Jewish messiah, he wasn't.

* The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
* Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
* The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
* He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
* The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
*****In other words - this must all be accomplished in a human lifetime*****
* Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
* Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
* He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
* All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
* Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
* There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
* All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
* The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
* He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
* Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
* The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
* The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
* Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
* The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
* He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
* Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
* He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
* He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9).
Thanks to Mark S and Plushy Bear

Reasons Jesus wasn’t the Jewish Messiah
divine birth/divinity - (the Jewish Messiah will be human – G-d cannot become human – Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 44:6, Hosea 11:9, Ezekiel 28:2, Numbers 23:19)

performing miracles - (JM won't perform miracles)
taking on the sins of others - (no one can take on the sins of others – Deuteronomy 24:16, Exodus 32:30-35, Ezekiel 18:1-4; 20-24; 26-27)
breaking Sabbath - strike (JM will be observant)
sacrificed/rising from the dead - (G-d rejects human sacrifice and blood sacrifice is NOT an absolute requirement – Deuteronomy 12:30-31, Jeremiah 19:4-6, Psalm 106:37-38, Ezekiel 16:20, Leviticus 5:11-13, Jonah 3:10, Leviticus 17, Leviticus 5:11-13, Numbers 16:47, Numbers 31:50, Isaiah 6:6-7, Jeremiah 7:22-23, Psalm 51:16-17)
prophecies unfilled - (JM will accomplish them in one life time)
The Messiah cannot trace his lineage through Jehoiakim, Jeconiah, or Shealtiel, because this royal line was cursed (I Chronicles 3:15-17; Jeremiah 22:18,30). But according to both Matthew 1:11-12 and Luke 3:27, Jesus was a descendant of Shealtiel
being worshiped - Jews worship G-d and only G-d

G-d is not a man that he should be deceitful nor a son of man that he should relent. (Numbers 23:19)

I will not act on My wrath, will not turn to destroy Ephraim. For I am G-d, not man, The Holy One in your midst. (Hosea 11:9)

Moreover, the Glory of Israel does not deceive or change His mind, for He is not human that He should change His mind. (1 Samuel 15:29)

He is not a man, like me, that I can answer him, that we can go to law together. No arbiter is between us, to lay his hand on us both. (Job 9:32-33)

Will you still say, “I am a god” before your slayers, when you are proved a man, not a god, at the hands of those who strike you down? (Ezekiel 28:9)

For your own sake, therefore, be most careful – since you saw no shape when the Lord your G-d spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. (Hosea 4:15)

For I am the Lord, I change not. (Malachi 3:6)
(thanks to What Jews Believe and PBW)
 
This is a troll given the question here but I'll answer some of it anyways.

Read the laws of adoption, in the book of sanheidren I'm sure that it will explain wether the adoted child has as much rights as a legitamate & biological child to the fathers posessions. We know that it is the mother that provides the defining aspect of the covenent to the child. So, he is a ben bris "son of the covenent" for starters.

Next, the bloodline of the adopted sons father {Yoseph} does go to King David so you would have to argue, can he rise to the throne of David if he is an adoptee? The answer is yes! Also to note a king of Israel was not always of the tribe of Yehuda anyways, just to make a point. The only tribe of Israel that needs to be 100% and cannot be mixed are Levim and Cohanim and we all know that we consider ourselves Yehudim or a more understood term in english "Jewish" which word derives from the root word of Yehuda who's tribe is of King David.

Another issue that we can get support from is from the story of Ruth and Mordechai. Ruth was a Moabite yet the Moshiach was to come from her. How is this possble? This is also to stress a point for consideration.

There is so much I can write here but for now I leave you with these few arguments since it is 2:45 am and I'm very sleepy. If this question is still available to be addressed I will address more then.
 
@:"One minor issue: the line of David runs through Joseph not Mary. Joseph is not Jesus real father, so his bloodline does not run through Jesus. So how is Jesus related to king David, and if he isn't doesn't that mean he didn't fulfill one of the messianic prophecies, ergo he is not the true Messiah?"

You will not believe that I have been waiting for a question like this;
This is one of MANY STUBBLING BLOCKS FOR THOSE WHO CLAIM TO BE FAMILY TO THE MESSIAH AND OR NOT...SO WHY WORRY ABOUT IT?

THE FATHER OF YAHSHUA IS KING; THAT WOULD BE 'YAHWEH.'
YAHWEH IS THE EVER LASTING KING. HIS SON, PRINCE OF PEACE.
IF YOU WE'RE AN ADOPTED SON OF A RICH MAN; AND THE RICHES FELL ON THE HEIR, WOULD YOU NOT BE IN COURT CLAIMING HEIRSHIP?
BECAUSE YOUR MOM WAS MARRIED TO HIM.

YAHWEH CAUSE JOHORAKIM NOT TO GET THAT SEAT; FOR THE SOUL PURPOSE FOR THE FUTURE SPIRITUAL KINGSHIP OF THE MESSIAH.
HIS KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD...HE WILL BRING HIS WITH HIM ALONG WITH HIS FATHER.
 
Um, no. Jesus didn't fulfill even ONE of the actual Jewish prophecies for the Messiah. Not one.

Jesus is not descended from King David. According to Christianity Jesus has no father. The Messiah is to be descended from the Tribe of Judah and King David. Tribal descent comes down through the FATHER of every Jew. Not the mother. The mother passes down being Jewish itself but does not pass down tribal lineage. Only the father can do this.

The Christian story of Jesus being created by God impregnating a human virgin female, is completely pagan. It does not come from Judaism whatsoever. It does not say that in the Jewish Torah, and there has never, ever existed this idea in Judaism. It has always been that the Messiah is a human being, born of a married Jewish man and wife in the usual way. The Messiah is not God, he is not worshipped, he does not do miracles (because there is no need to do miracles as when the real Messiah comes all the prophecies are fulfilled), and he certainly does not die as a virgin human sacrifice. Human sacrifice is an abomination to God and this has NEVER existed in Judaism for the Messiah.

Nor can the position of Messiah be gained through adoption. Christians who realise that Jesus didn't fulfull the prophecy of being descended from the tribe of Judah and King David on his father's side, will often say that Joseph was descended like this and that he adopted Jesus.

Nope. It doesnt work that way. The position of Messiah is a BLOODLINE position and cannot be gained through adoption. Just like the office of Kohen (Jewish priest) is a bloodline position and cannot be gained through adoption.


So no, this is not a "minor issue". It completely disqualifies Jesus from being the Messiah, let alone the fact that he failed to fulfill even one of the actual Jewish prophecies.
 
Well here is the kicker, the bloodline as you call it in Matthew is actually Mary's & the one in Luke is
Joseph's.
This can easily be proved by the fact that the brothers of Yeshua have names of the people in the
genealogy of Luke. Matt 13:55 brothers names James=Ya'akov, Joses=Yoseph, Simon=Simeon, &
Judas=Yehudah. This ties up with Luke 3:34 Jacob/Ya'akov, vs30 Simeon, Judah/Yehudah & Joseph/Yoseph. 5 mentions of Josephs, 3 mentions of Judah's, 1 mention of Simeon & 1 Jacob.
There is a clue in Luke 1:61 where John the baptist is named Yochanan and the people at the circumcision say that " There is no one among your relatives who is called by this name."
Yeshua would have inherited after Mary's line as her 1st born son & Jacob/Ya'akov/James would have inherited after his father Joseph/Yoseph as his 1st born son & probably Mary's 2nd son.
So he did fulfill this prophecy & then there is the cursing of Jechoniah, who is in the line of both Mary and Joseph, if one looks at Haggai 2:23 the curse was lifted from Zerrubabel the son of Shealtiel, also in both bloodlines. "I have chosen you says YHWH Elohim"
Scripture show clearly that Yeshua of Netzeret is Ha Moshiach & is the BRANCH from Zecheriah 5:
12-13. He is THE NETZER, THE BRANCH from Branch Town= Netzeret= Nazareth as prophesied in
Matt 2:23 " And he came & dwelt in a city called Netzeret/Nazareth that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a NETZER/ Nazarene. Isaiah 11:1, 4:2
 
I know. All that stuff is confusing, contradictory and cannot be proven. I only concern my self with what Jesus taught. That is hard enough for me
 
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