The American Infallibility Complex

[tr4nsist0r]

That antiquity sure is working out great for them huh?

 

[ThatAnnaGirl]

I don't think honesty comes into it really, I think that cultural paradigm shifts are far harder to instigate than that.

As you say, these social advances snowball. Once you start treating some people more fairly, others will be more inclined to demand rights for themselves. But getting that snowball rolling is not easy. Think where we've come, from Magna Carta, Civil War, the birth of unions and welfare out of the industrial revolution. We knew about other cultures that were less cruel, and had philosophers to give even more just visions of society, but we still thought we were "right".

Let's take democracy as an example, because there is a consensus that it is "the least worst" political system. But then think of an Afghan tribal elder, who has been responsible for the well-being of his people for many years, through conditions most of us could barely imagine. Now imagine telling this man that an 18 year-old girl who's never left the village should have an equal say in political matters. I can't imagine that would go down well, just as when men of certain social standing were given the vote in Britain, the idea of women voting would be largely scoffed at. It is a process, and not one that we know enough of to reliably replicate it elsewhere, especially not in countries who's culture we don't fully understand, and especially not in a mere matter of decades.

 

[Clock]

All that tells us is that change is hard. Change takes effort. Change takes self awareness and group effort.
It does admit that change from one state to another is possible though.

 

[JustListen]

But the above is displaying a sense of innate superiority.

Saying that female circumcision, genocide, discrimination etc. are just the result of "crap people" entirely misses the point that any of us has the potential to be a witch doctor, concentration camp guard or slave owner, given the right circumstances.

We have things like the Stanford Prison Experiment and the Milgram experiment to inform us of this.

 

[ShaqFU]

Yes, but it also tells us that change is a process borne out of particular circumstances.

If we hadn't made life so miserable for workers during Britain's industrialisation, people would not have fought for worker's rights and reform of living conditions.

I do feel that human rights for all humans is a noble and worthy ideal, but forcing it on people creates backlash, as people tend to be protective of their culture. Helping countries arrive at the same socioeconomic watershed moments that give opportunity for human rights to flourish seems the more sensible course to me.

 

[jradi]

That's not what I said. Crap people are everywhere and can do things that are unacceptable in their culture.
That's why still get people badger baiting in the UK (for example) despite the fact that, as a culture, we generally look down on animal torture.
If enough people do a certain "thing" (like cut up their daughters genitals) it's not down to "crap people" but cultural pressure.

 

[jixer29]

Ok, I get you now. Agreed.

 

[xp45]

I'm not even sure what that point is?
You're essentially saying that if things were OK from the start we wouldn't have had to work to make them better?
Isn't that obvious?
Well no argument from me there.
Feel free to keep things that are already working well.



Aye fair enough. I don't think that pointing out that torturing animals or cutting up children's genitals are morally repugnant is "forcing" anyone though is it?

 

[squirrelmaster]

It seems to me that most people in the world think that their own country is the greatest on earth. Even if they've never been anywhere else, which is funny, really.

 

[terenceo]

Actually I think moral change/improvement mainly happens through the death of one generation and the rise of another.
That's one reason it takes so long.
My parents were less sexist and racist than my grandparents. I am less racist and sexist than them. Try as a I might to be perfect my daughter will be less racist and sexist than I am and live in a culture that is less racist and sexist than it was 100 years ago.
It's change by degrees.

 

[lanek]

No, because things weren't ok before the industrial revolution, but it took extreme circumstances and things getting much worse for us to perceive it as a serious problem. I was giving another example of how concepts of human rights that we largely take for granted were not ideals plucked from some Platonic realm, but practical demands made by people to save them from real peril.

I just feel that the parental telling-off is not helpful, and reminds me of colonial-era assumptions of superiority. I would rather we work on becoming a better example for others to follow. It's not like we don't have a lot to work to do in that regard.

 

[GIRLWITHANSWERS]

Suffrage didn't come about thanks to people who were willing to wait for liberation. Of course people will be protective of their cultures but the fact that racists get upset and frustrated when called on their racism doesn't mean we shouldn't call them on it.

Granted, certain social-economic conditions coupled with other back-ground cultural assumptions produce other cultural effects but that is not a reason to avoid challenging peoples culture when it engages in un-ethical practises.

Radical cultural change nearly always involves conflict and to think that we have a duty to avoid such conflict hampers our ability to deal with more iofftopicnent ethical issues.

 

[paodhistorian]

interesting thing about america. we're clearly not perfect in any way shape or form. sure, there's been progress. but remember, it really wasn't until 1964 that people of color were even considered equal under the law. up until the late sixties, many states had laws banning inter-racial marriage. gay people, right now, are second class citizens for no other reason than they're gay.

yes, i think we've made a lot of progress. and there are a lot of great people here, and most are not arrogant. and hey, our economy in the 20th and 21st centuries is great (helps to bomb all your competitors too) but we have to be vigilant that we don't take steps back. which could easily happen.

 

[horseluver]

Very true.

Though it's not all in the right direction. I find people over 5 years younger than me to be more likely to express sexist or racist views. I blame the political correctness backlash, especially when it comes to sexism: lad mags, rejection of feminism etc.

 

[NAMANJ]

So are you saying we have more sexism and racism in the UK now that we did say... in the 80's?


I mean, that's an exaggeration, but what's your point here? Don't fight bad cultural norms otherwise they might get worse??

 

[princessspecial]

But how much should we force it to happen? And how do we make it happen? Bombing people into cultural paradigm shifts hasn't worked too well.

 

[ValerieT]

I think the 'political correctness backlash' is basically just people with racist views using 'political correctness' as an excuse to try to pass off their racist views as being those of an imaginary 'persecuted majority'. It's a trojan horse.

 

[Navia]

It worked in WWII. We bombed the naziness out of the Germans.

 

[APC]

When have we ever tried to bomb someone into a cultural shift?

 

[Iknowtheanswersttt]

I was too young in the 80s to give an informed opinion, but definitely worse than the 90s.

At 26 (2006) I went to university as a mature student, and was horrified by some male's attitude toward women, and even more so at some women's attitude toward women. The use of racially pejorative terms was also far more common than when I was the same age, just some 6 or 7 years previous.