The American Infallibility Complex

Thanks for the expainations! I get my news from the net, and it is hard to know the reliability of the source. I never realised how big a problem this could be till reading some of the recent political threads here. I saw some Europeans quoting things from American groups with extreme views and poor reputations without realizing it.
 
Yeah, I think I once got caught citing the Daily Mail as journalistic authority. I didn't know, it looked like a newspaper at the time!
 
Yeah they are cunning like that. It really does look like a newspaper.
 
I agree with you, UKIP are protectionist and leaving the EU would be a dissaster. However I think that our politicians especially the socialists become to obsessed with the EU. When Britain first joined the EU the dominant countries in terms of international trade were western and therfore we were obsessed with Western trade. But in today's world we are moving into a new era driven by Asian and Latin American economic powers we need to refocus our efforts.
 
I'm glad your experience is better than mine, but I went to an arts college, and there were no sports societies or teams.

It certainly has got better, but it is easy to let standards slide.

As for bombing people into another culture, your argument is a bit chicken & egg. Yes, ultimately it comes down to resources, but cultural dominance is a big part of that. A good example would be the proxy wars of the cold war.
 
Well, I respect your arguments but I think it neglects history as the whole premise of this argument does. The problem is that we assume western culture is 'pure' in some way and hasn't been influenced by many other cultures. The fact is that many of the great things we love about the west were borrowed from other cultures: for example the first free market system in the world were formed by muslims during the height of Islamic empires; these civilizations were also responsible for modern chemistry, trigonometry and many other intellectual achievements.

Another point is that actually there have been times were some cultures have been more advanced than western cultures when it comes to morality; such as the Native American's that were among the first people of the world to openly accept homosexuality. At a time when westerners were engaged in mass enslavement; the Igbo people of Nigeria had completely renounced slavery and declared all forms of violence an abomination to nature. When females in medieval Europe were stepped on Queens of the Fulani Caliphate were pioneering female education in West Africa.

There are too many cultures in the world to generalize, the truth is that all cultures borrow from each other and the history of progression is linked to most of the cultures of mankind.
 
But it's just not that black and white. The idea that a culture is inferior because it allows some disgusting things, stops us from objectively examining things about that culture that we could learn from. Plus we still do some pretty disgusting things.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't encourage human rights, but we shouldn't be so quick to take the moral high ground. Glass houses and all that.
 
You might assume. I certainly don't.
Take Britain for example. We're an island that has seen immigration from almost everywhere (Roman, Vikings, Normans, West Indies, Indian subcontinent).
We speak a germanic base language with influence from all over the world.
Our state religion is a version of a middle eastern desert religion.
Our monarch (uugh) is mostly german IIRC. Her husband is greek.
We've had influence for all of our history.
We are about as far from anything pure as you can get.



And? How does that in any way invalidate looking round the world and trying to learn from what other people are doing right?
That's actually what I'm getting at.
If it make life better for people adopt it. No matter what culture it comes from.



Well done them.
Now...about those Taliban...can we take a look at how they like to treat people?

I don't care what cultures did "in the past". What are they doing NOW?
I'm not using anything western culture has done in the past to somehow claim superiority. Because all cultures have been bad in the past. That's how we know we're getting better.
 
exactly, as you acknowledge Britian has seen migration from everywhere and that is my point, what you're calling western culture is not even western in the first place. Secondly the reason why I am quoting history is because I am demonstrating that many of the the THINGS THAT MAKE THE WEST SUCCESSFUL NOW come from other cultures. The taliban are not a culture are they? They're an organisation. Thirdly it's right to say that cultures should adopt ideas from around the world but another reason for quoting the history I quoted is to show that at times the west has not adopted the ideas that other nations have that were more progressive. Why is that? It's because the people weren't ready and thats exactly the same as cultures today; it will change when the people want it to change. It's happening already look at the 'Arab Springs'; people got fed up with dictators and revolted for democracry, why didn't they do that before? BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WERE NOT READY
 
Actually that is a relatively recent "meme" and not strictly true - culturally homosexuality enjoyed widespread acceptance across the globe, and (without wishing to inflame) it was the influx of Abrahamic religions (predominantly Christianity) that pretty much screwed everything up
 
So because Saudi Arabians aren't ready to treat it's women like actual people or because Somalis thinks sewing up their daughters genitals is a good idea or Tanzanians are't ready to stop thinking dead albino's have magical powers I shouldn't say anything about those things?
Just leave them to it "until they are ready"?

Every single moral advance has been in the face of people that weren't ready.
It precisely because people push back good ideas by holding on to tradition that we should raise these issues.


I think they can be defined as a culture. They have their ideas on how to live. How govern and enact laws. In certain areas the Taliban culture is the prevailing one (happily not many).
You can have an amish culture or latter day saints culture within the wider American culture.
Why not a Taliban culture?



Seeing as I've conceded no nation is free from influence I think you are overstating the word "many".
Some maybe. Some great things for sure.
But "many"?
 
I'm really not. I've constantly said that all cultures have good and bad things.
I'm viewing us as a world community.
Like houses on the same street.
All I'm pointing out is that we can look into each "house", see how they live, make reasoned judgements on which ways of life promote humans flourishing (by looking at the real world outcomes of those ways of life) and try to pool our knowledge to build a better "street".
You can go into minutiae and look at each individuals actions day to day or go wider than that and look at how communities act en masse.

If someone gave me compelling evidence that arranged marriages, the caste system, FGM, denying education to girls, flogging rape victims or any number of any other cultural practices help to foster human flourishing FOR EVERYONE then I'll change my view.
 
The Taliban are not a culture, they're an organization, true. BUT both the Taliban and Saudi Arabia are Wahhabist, and Wahhabi could certainly be considered a culture...a culture that is brutally intolerant to women, gays, and religious minorities. So the difference there is merely a semantic one. Pretend PA Smith said Wahhabist instead of Taliban.

As for "not ready yet." Here is the 101st Airborne Division protecting the first African-American students at Little Rock High and forcing back those pro-segregationists who would do them harm. Sometimes you can't wait until "people are ready." If we waited until everyone was "ready" for racial integration in the USA, it never would have happened.
 
PASmith said:
So because Saudi Arabians aren't ready to treat it's women like actual people or because Somalis thinks sewing up their daughters genitals is a good idea or Tanzanians are't ready to stop thinking dead albino's have magical powers I shouldn't say anything about those things?
Just leave them to it "until they are ready"?

No I think its perfectly fine and a good thing for you to speak out. My point is its not going to change anything because you cant force people to believe what you believe; it will only be when these cultures 'see the light' for themselves will they be able to change. It has to come from them not because western people want to see it.

Every single moral advance has been in the face of people that weren't ready.
It precisely because people push back good ideas by holding on to tradition that we should raise these issues.

Yes but in almost every case the majority has been progressive and in a society it is the majority that will make the society change. In the instances that we are talking about unfortunately there is not a majority opinion in favour.

I think they can be defined as a culture. They have their ideas on how to live. How govern and enact laws. In certain areas the Taliban culture is the prevailing one (happily not many).
You can have an amish culture or latter day saints culture within the wider American culture.
Why not a Taliban culture?

The culture or type of Islam they follow is Wahhibism and wahhibism is not exclusively followed by the Taliban which is why they have adopted a culture but by no means have dominance over it.
Click to expand...
 
I guess these fine gentlemen just weren't ready for women's suffrage?



The poor dear should probably have kept quiet and got on with her knitting until they were ready.
 
No. It's a continuum.
At one point women didn't have the vote. Then some people decided they should, Then more people. Then even more. Until it couldn't be stopped.
It took many years (and still hasn't reached some parts of the world).
You need people that make a stand for what is right even though the majority might oppose them.
 
We pretty much all agree that bad things are bad, so now how do we go about changing things?

If we are to look at outcomes, at the global scale, did the invasion of Afghanistan by the west improve more lives than it damaged or destroyed? Was it an act that proves our moral superiority?

Is every member of the Taliban evil? How many have you met?
 
But the problem is that you are presenting a one sided argument here. You presume that western society helps human flourish but look at Global warming caused by industrialization; it has created a hole in the ozone layer and helped to give millions of people skin cancer through global warming. Or why don't we look at the west's constant obsessions with creating powerful weaponry; how did the creation of nuclear weapons benefit society (tell that to the survivors of hiroshima and nagasaki). Or the modern banking system dominated by the west which keeps children in third world countrys in virtual slavery through cash crops.

Please stop presenting a rosey view of western society and claim that it automatically helps humans flourish. That statement is way to strongp; there is an equal amount of good and bad that western society produces for mankind.
 
When i was in the states my wife was friends with a GG boxer (female) who said the single best thing for Afghanistan was the invasion....she had lived there all her life and had recently escaped

Was every member of the Third Reich evil? How many have you met?
 
I would argue that the push towards a global community is in everyones best interest and it is petty tribalism that keeps things from flourishing

Would you prefer witchdoctors and trepanning?
 
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