US embassies attacked

I must admit that I didn't know that either, but that illustrates my point beautifully.
 
The reason its coming across as if I am making Islam out to be a special case is because this thread was about actions of Muslims. So naturally the coversation is going to go that way.

On a personal level yes I do think Islam is more violent, from verses from the Quran itself, from watching lecture by Islamic scholars etc,

Now you can go ahead and say ah yes but these are not true Muslims, which is something we have been discussing, but I choose not to accept that.
but this is my personal belief and Im entitled to it.
 
I don't want to get dragged in to this conversation, but the Old Testament is pretty violent...
 
Yes it is, and if this thread was focused on the actions of Christians, we would be discussing this.

However Christianity and its scholars does not advocate horrific punishments for those who choose not to follow it anymore. See above about Apostasy etc

There are verses in the old and new testament which advocate, slavery its just people choose not to follow these verses anymore as its become some what socially unacceptable.

However Islamic culture still holds on to these outdated beliefs, and in following Sharia. You see both the Scholar and the young lady in that video struggling to answer the Question on Apostasy because they know the answer is that in some Islamic countries its punishable by death.

Do some research on the treatment of Solomon Rushdi by the Muslim community when he published his book Satanic Verses
–By the way Sharia just means law in Arabic,-
 
Matthew


Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17

Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30

Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19

"The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12

Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21

Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32

Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen.19:24). 10:14-15

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28

Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36

Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24

Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the coofftopicndment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7

Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire." 18:8-9

In the parable of the unforgiving servant, the king threatens to enslave a man and his entire family to pay for a debt. This practice, which was common at the time, seems not to have bothered Jesus very much. The parable ends with this: "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you." If you are cruel to others, God will be cruel to you. 18:23-35

"And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors." 18:34

God is like a rich man who owns a vineyard and rents it to poor farmers. When he sends servants to collect the rent, the tenants beat or kill them. So he sent his son to collect the rent, and they kill him too. Then the owner comes and kills the farmers and rents the vineyard to others. 21:33-41

"Whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." Whoever falls on "this stone" (Jesus) will be broken, and whomever the stone falls on will be ground into powder. 21:44

In the parable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn't have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and "cast him into the outer darkness" where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 22:12-13

Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It'll be just like that when he returns. 24:37

God will come when people least expect him and then he'll "cut them asunder." And "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 24:50-51

The servant who kept and returned his master's talent was cast into the "outer darkness" where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:30

Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." 25:41

Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever. 25:46 Mark


Jesus explains why he speaks in parables: to confuse people so they will go to hell. 4:11-12

Jesus sends devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. When the people hear about it, they beg Jesus to leave. 5:12-13

Any city that doesn't "receive" the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. 6:11

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) 7:9-10

Jesus tells us to cut off our hands and feet, and pluck out our eyes to avoid going to hell. 9:43-49

God is like a rich man who owns a vineyard and rents it to poor farmers. When he sends servants to collect the rent, the tenants beat or kill them. So he sent his son to collect the rent, and they kill him too. Then the owner comes and kills the farmers and gives the vineyard to others. 12:1-9

Jesus tells his disciples to eat his body and drink his blood. 14:22-24

Jesus says that those that believe and are baptized will be saved, while those who don't will be damned. 16:16 Luke


God strikes Zacharias dumb for doubting the angel Gabriel's words. 1:20

Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 3:9

John the Baptist says that Christ will burn the damned "with fire unquenchable." 3:17

Jesus heals a naked man who was possessed by many devils by sending the devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the sea. This messy, cruel, and expensive (for the owners of the pigs) treatment did not favorably impress the local residents, and Jesus was asked to leave. 8:27-37

Jesus says that entire cities will be violently destroyed and the inhabitants "thrust down to hell" for not "receiving" his disciples. 10:10-15

Jesus says that we should fear God since he has the power to kill us and then torture us forever in hell. 12:5

Jesus says that God is like a slave-owner who beats his slaves "with many stripes." 12:46-47

"Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." 13:3, 5

According to Jesus, only a few will be saved; the vast majority will suffer eternally in hell where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13:23-30

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man goes to hell, because as Abraham explains, he had a good life on earth and so now he will be tormented. Whereas Lazarus, who was miserable on earth, is now in heaven. This seems fair to Jesus. 16:19-31

Jesus believed the story of Noah's ark. He thought it really happened and had no problem with the idea of God drowning everything and everybody. 17:26-27

Jesus also believes the story about Sodom's destruction. He says, "even thus shall it be in the day the son of man is revealed ... Remember Lot's wife." This tells us about Jesus' knowledge of science and history, and his sense of justice. 17:29-32

In the parable of the talents, Jesus says that God takes what is not rightly his, and reaps what he didn't sow. The parable ends with the words: "bring them [those who preferred not to be ruled by him] hither, and slay them before me." 19:22-27

Jesus tells his disciples to eat his body and drink his blood. 22:19-20 John


Jesus believed the stupid and vicious story from Numbers 21. (God sent snakes to bite the people for complaining about the lack of food and water. Then God told Moses to make a brass snake to cure them from the bites.) 3:14

"God so loved the world, that he gave his His only begotten Son."
As an example to parents everywhere and to save the world (from himself), God had his own son tortured and killed. 3:16

People are damned or saved depending only on what they believe. 3:18, 36

The "wrath of God" is on all unbelievers. 3:36

Jesus believes people are crippled by God as a punishment for sin. He tells a crippled man, after healing him, to "sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." 5:14

Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned. 15:6

Jesus says we must eat his flesh and drink his blood if we want to have eternal life. This idea was just too gross for "many of his disciples" and "walked no more with him." 6:53-66 Acts


Peter claims that Deuteronomy 18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all non-Christians) must be killed. 3:23

Peter and God scare Ananias and his wife to death for not forking over all of the money that they made when selling their land. 5:1-10

Peter has a dream in which God show him "wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls." The voice (God's?) says, "Rise, Peter: kill and eat." 10:10-13

Peter describes the vision that he had in the last chapter (10:10-13). All kinds of beasts, creeping things, and fowls drop down from the sky in a big sheet, and a voice (God's, Satan's?) tells him to "Arise, Peter; slay and eat." 11:5-10

The "angel of the Lord" killed Herod by having him "eaten of worms" because "he gave not God the glory." 12:23

David was "a man after [God's] own heart." 13:22

The author of Acts talks about the "sure mercies of David." But David was anything but merciful. For an example of his behavior see 2 Sam.12:31 and 1 Chr.20:3, where he saws, hacks, and burns to death the inhabitants of several cities. 13:34

Paul and the Holy Ghost conspire together to make Elymas (the sorcerer) blind. 13:8-11
Romans


Homosexuals (those "without natural affection") and their supporters (those "that have pleasure in them") are "worthy of death." 1:31-32

The guilty are "justified" and "saved from wrath" by the blood of an innocent victim. 5:9

God punishes everyone for someone else's sin; then he saves them by killing an innocent victim. 5:12

"If ... we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son", then God is truly a monster. 5:10 1 Corinthians


If you defile the temple of God, God will destroy you. 3:17

Paul claims that God killed 23,000 in a plague for "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab 10:8

If you tempt Christ (How could you tempt Christ?), you'll will die from snake bites. 10:9

If you murmur, you'll be destroyed by the destroyer (God). 10:10
2 Corinthians


The terror of the Lord 5:11
Galatians


If anyone dares to disagree with Paul on religious matters, "let him be accursed." 1:8-9
Ephesians


We are predestined by God to go to either heaven or hell. None of our thoughts, words, or actions can affect the final outcome. 1:4-5, 11

God had his son murdered to keep himself from hurting others for things they didn't do. 1:7

The bloody death of Jesus smelled good to God. 5:2

Those who refuse to obey will face the wrath of God. 5:6
Philippians

Colossians


God bought us with someone else's blood. 1:14

God makes peace through blood. 1:19-20
1 Thessalonians


God is planning a messy, mass murder in "the wrath to come" and only Jesus can save you from it. 1:10

Christians shouldn't mourn the death of their fellow believers. They'll be OK and you'll see them later in heaven. The people you should mourn are dead nonbelievers. They have no hope (because they're going to hell). 4:13
2 Thessalonians


Jesus will take "vengeance on them that know not God" by burning them forever "in flaming fire." 1:7-9

Jesus will "consume" the wicked "with the spirit of his mouth." 2:8

God will cause us to believe lies so that he can damn our souls to hell. 2:11-12
1 Timothy

2 Timothy

Titus

Philemon

Hebrews


"That which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."
Apostates will burn in hell with the other non-believers. 6:8

"Melchisedec ... met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him."
God showed his approval of "the slaughter of the kings" with Melchisedec's blessing of Abraham. (Genesis 14:17-18) 7:1

God will not forgive anyone unless something is killed for him in a bloody manner. 9:13-22

"A certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."
God will soon destroy non-believers in a fiery hell. 10:27

Those who disobeyed the Old Testament law were killed without mercy. It will be much worse for those who displease Jesus. 10:28-29

"Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord." 10:30

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." 10:31

"Abraham ... offered up Isaac ... his only begotten son." (And this was a good thing? How ****ed up is that?) 11:17

The Israelites kept the passover and sprinkled blood on doorposts so that God wouldn't kill their firstborn children (like he did the Egyptians in Exodus 12:29). 11:28

God saved Rahab because she believed. (He killed all the non-believers in Jericho.) 11:31

"Time would fail me to tell of Gideon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthah; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets."
The heroes of faith: Gideon, Samson, Jephthah, David, and Samuel. It would be hard to find a more monstrous group than these guys. 11:32

"Others were tortured ... that they might obtain a better resurrection." 11:35

God ordered animals to be "stoned, or thrust through with a dart" if they "so much as ... touch the mountain." 12:20

"Ye are come ... to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel." 12:22-24 James


James says Abraham was justified by works (for being willing to kill his son for God); Paul (Rom.4:2-3) says he was justified by faith (for believing that God would order him to do such an evil act). 2:21 1 Peter


We are all, according to Peter, predestined to be saved or damned. We have no say in the matter. It was all determined by "the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."1:2

"The precious blood of Christ ... was foreordained before the foundation of the world."
God planned to kill Jesus from the get-go. 1:19-20

God drowned everyone on earth except for Noah and his family. 3:20
2 Peter


God drowned everyone else on earth except for Noah and his family. 2:5, 3:6

"Turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes" 2:6

God will set the entire earth on fire so that he can burn non-believers to death. 3:7

When Jesus returns, he'll burn up the whole earth and everything on it. 3:10
1 John


Jesus' blood washes away human sin. 1:7
2 John

3 John

Jude


"The Lord destroyed them that believed not." 5

God sent "eternal fire" on the people of Sodom and Gomorrah for "going after strange flesh." 7-8 Revelation


Jesus "washed us ... with his own blood." 1:5

Everyone on earth will wail because of Jesus. 1:7

Jesus has "the keys of hell and death." 1:18

Repent -- or else Jesus will fight you with the sword that sticks out of his mouth. (Like the limbless knight in Monty Python's "Holy Grail.") 2:16

"I [Jesus] will kill her children with death." 2:23

"Thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." God created parasites, pathogens, and predators for his very own pleasure. One of his favorite species is guinea worms. 4:11

"Thou art worthy ... for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood." 5:9

God gives someone on a white horse a bow and sends him out to conquer people. 6:2

God gave power to someone on a red horse "to take from the earth ... that they should kill one another." 6:4

God tells Death and Hell to kill one quarter of the earth's population with the sword, starvation, and "with the beasts of the earth." 6:8

The martyrs just can't wait until everyone else is slaughtered. God gives them a white robe and tells them to wait until he's done with his killing spree. 6:10-11

God tells his murderous angels to "hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of your God on their foreheads." This verse is one that Christians like to use to show God's loving concern for the environment. But the previous verse (7:2) makes it clear that it was their God-given job to "hurt the earth and the sea" just as soon as they finished their forehead marking job. 7:3

144,000 Jews will be going to heaven; everyone else is going to hell. 7:4

Those that survive the great tribulation will get to wash their clothes in the blood of the lamb. 7:14

God sends his angels to destroy a third part of all the trees, grass, sea creature, mountains, sun, moon, starts, and water. 8:7-13

"Many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter." 8:11

The angels are instructed not to "hurt the grass [how could they? He already had all the grass killed in 8:7] ... but only those men which have not the seal of God on their foreheads." God tells his angels not to kill them, but rather torment them with scorpions for five months. Those tormented will want to die, but God won't let them. 9:4-6

God makes some horse-like locusts with human heads, women's hair, lion's teeth, and scorpion's tails. They sting people and hurt them for five months. 9:7-10

Four angels, with an army of 200 million, killed a third of the earth's population. 9:15-19

Anyone that messes with God's two olive trees and two candlesticks (God's witnesses) will be burned to death by fire that comes out of their mouths. 11:3-5

God's witnesses have special powers. They can shut up heaven so that it cannot rain, turn rivers into blood, and smite the earth with plagues "as often as they will." 11:6

After God's witnesses "have finished their testimony," they are killed in a war with a beast from a bottomless pit. 11:7

Their dead bodies lie unburied for three and a half days. People will "rejoice over them and make merry, and shall send gifts to one another." After another three and half days God brings his witnesses back to life and they ascend into heaven. 11:8-12

When the witnesses ascend into heaven, an earthquake kills 7000 men. This was the second woe. "The third woe cometh quickly." 11:13-14

"The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"
God planned to kill Jesus before he created the world. 13:8

Those who receive the mark of the beast will "drink of the wine of the wrath of God ... and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone ... and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever." 14:10-11

Jesus sits on a white cloud with a sharp sickle in his hand. When the angel tells him to reap, he kills all the people with his sickle. 14:14-18

"The great winepress of the wrath of God ... was trodden ... and the blood cam out of the winepress, even unto the horses bridles." 14:19-20

Seven angels with seven plagues are filled with the wrath of God. 15:1, 15:7

The seven vials of wrath: 1) sores, 2) sea turned to blood, 3) rivers turned to blood, 4) people scorched with fire, 5) people gnaw their tongues in pain, 6) Euphrates dries up, 7) thunder, lightning, earthquake, and hail. 16:1

"There fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast." 16:2

"The second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea." 16:3

"The third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood." 16:4

God gave the saints and prophets blood to drink. 16:6

An angel tells God how righteous he is because he gives saints blood to drink. 16:7

"Power was given unto him [the fourth angel] to scorch men with fire." 16:8

Those who were being burned to death by God didn't repent "to give him glory." 16:9

"The fifth angel poured out his vial ... and they gnawed their tongues for pain." 16:10

Even after being burned alive, those nasty people wouldn't repent! 16:11

Christians will fight in the war between Jesus and those allied with the beast. 17:14

"They shall eat her flesh and burn her with fire." (Are they going to eat her first and then burn her?) 17:16-17

To punish her God will send plagues and famine, and "she will be utterly burned with fire." 18:8

God will send plagues, death, and famine on Babylon, and the kings "who have committed fornication with her" will be sad to see her burn. 18:8-9

Jesus makes war. 19:11

Jesus's clothes are dipped in blood and his secret name ("that no man knew") is "The Word of God". (I bet you thought it was Jesus!) 19:13

With eyes aflame, many crowns on his head, clothes dripping with blood, a sword sticking out of his mouth, and a secret name, Jesus leads the faithful in heaven into holy war on earth. 19:14-15

"Come ... unto the supper of the great God." An angel calls all the fowls to feast upon the flesh of dead horses and human bodies, "both free and bond, both small and great." 19:17-18

The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest were killed with the sword of Jesus. "And all the fowls were filled with their flesh." 19:20-21

God will send fire from heaven to devour people. And the devil will be tormented "day and night for ever and ever." 20:9-10

Whoever isn't found listed in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. 20:15

All liars, as well as those who are fearful or unbelieving, will be cast into "the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." 21:8


Hate and violence is in all the Abrahamic religions.

The Bear.
 
I think the idea that terrorists etc represent muslims is something of a red herring. Apart from organisations where there is a nominated head, there isn't a representative or group of representatives.

However, the terrorists are examples of muslims. In a system made up of individuals, we can look at examples and draw inferences about the behaviour of the system.

Every muslim who donates to charity and lives lawfully is an example of a muslim. Every muslim who beats his daughter for driving in a car with a man or rampages in the streets because of a cartoon is also an example of a muslim.

The key question is whether, looking at the system as a whole, Islam contains enough examples of extreme behaviour (or extreme behaviour in sufficient magnitude) as compared to other idiological groups to be considered problematic in itself. If you look at it this way, individual examples don't make much difference. The odd muslim nutter or the odd christian nutter or the odd atheist nutter don't tell you much about the system.

The important question is whether there is a critical mass of examples occurring within one group. Are you more likely to launch into religiously motivated crime if you belong to one group rather than another?
 
Maybe not so much nowadays, but it was pretty common in the past.I think that point has been addressed enough times now, hasn't it?

So it's OK for Christians to interpret which bits of the Bible to follow and which to ignore, but not OK for Muslims?

There are fanatics in both religions who pick out the bits they want to to justify doing evil things. Just a surely as the peaceful majority do not.
 
Where does it need to go? Where does it have to go? I don't care, nor do I care about where Christianity, Buddhism or any other religion goes, why does it matter?
It is the fastest growing religion in the planet in terms of converts, and that is particularly in the west and especially after 9/11, make of that what you will.

What Buddhist wouldn't want the entire world to be Buddhist? Or Jew, or Christian? Or Hindu? Is that what they are aiming for? Not really no, do you get Jehovas witness knocking on your door? Yes? Same as any religion, the history may be tarnished in violence, but now in peaceful countries, it's just practice their faith, preach when they can. I thought you watched the Hitchen vs Ramadan debate? Did you not listen to the parts about Islam and how in the Qur'an it mentions the Christian and Jewish religions as neighbourly? How the Qur'an teaches to be brotherly with your ancestral tribes and neighbours? To respect the Abrahamic faiths? Do you watch the videos you post?

Let me explain to you the fundamental difference between the three Abrahamic religions. Judaism see Moses as their prophet. They do not see Jesus as the son of God. Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God and take in the teachings of the new testament. Muslims believe as do Christians in the second coming of Christ, they also believe Mary was a virgin, they see and respect Jesus nearly as much as Muhaofftopicd, but see Muhaofftopicd as higher as he is the "last prophet" and is known as the "Messenger of Islam".

The rest is bureaucracy, drink wine, don't drink wine, eat swine don't eat swine. Wash yourself like this, pray like that. The angels, heaven, hell, the devil, these are all basically the same in the Abrahamic religions.

The only difference is, currently Islam is in the same position that Judaism was for the last two millennia or so, it's new, it's a little alien. It's Arab, it's not western. It's basically the clash of civilizations. Samuel Huntington link again. Last time this time, about subjects which you can perfectly look at yourself. If something new is added to the conversation that isn't already covered by something I mentioned before, I'll respond to that or anything you need clarification on in my post.
 
So it's OK for Christians to interpret which bits of the Bible to follow and which to ignore, but not OK for Muslims?

I was answering someone elses point, not yours. I was showing that I was aware of the "bad" things in the bible.

I am anti all religions, I am an Atheist, so please do not see it as though im defending Christianity.
I think they are as hypocritcal as all religions can be.
You do notice however in current times we do not have governments enforicing strict Old Testament verses.
This is one of the problems Islam's failure to seperate government and religion.

--------

On the Apostasy point, I was reiterarting it because at first it was denied that they had heard anything about it. Then I showed the video in which a Muslim Cleric states that it is punishable by death.

It seems very selective that they had not heard of it, and as I have done in the past raise it with your Muslim friends. They do not like to talk about it.

If we seperate Islam and the state then that would be a start, in countries which enfroce these laws.

Raz
 
In that case pretty much EVERY soldier the united states has sent outside its borders in recent history is a villain?

THis event occured in the battle of khandaq. (Battle of trenches) in this battle, the muslims went into battle against an army sent to raze Madinah (their home) to the ground. =)
 
Again, you are misinformed.

One, there can't really be a Shariah as there is no Khalifah (Pope/Emperor) position of Muslims. Only a Khalifah has the authority to call for a Jihad. The literal meaning of the word is law, as the literal meaning of Jihad is struggle. But Shariah is a complex system of laws similar to that of the EU court, UK courts or US courts. It isn't black and white. Last I checked many states in the USA still have the death penalty. The "shariah" you see in some countries is not Islamic Shariah, as clearly stated in the Quran (if you bothered to do a little research) you will understand, for Shariah to be in place, (the court) there needs to be an Islamic state, (no nationalities, think of it as an EU of sorts) There needs to be a president (a Khalifah/Pope). This was destroyed in 1924 after the fall of the Ottoman/Uthmani empire.

Shariah is a judicial system, stoning is not black and white, stoning for Apostates is not something every country practices, and is just an excuse just like the Taliban was in Afghanistan not allowing women to study, (this is not in the Qur'an and actually it is encouraged EVERYONE study) the Taliban used this as Shariah to control and rule the masses. You should do some more study on Sulman Rushdie, the fatwah was handed out by the Iranian Ayatollah (their equivalent of a Pope).
Fatwah, death sentences are accepted in the Middle East, if there was a situation where Jesus and his disciples where ridiculed in a book (yes I have read the satanic verses). Hypothetically speaking, Italy/Europe still had the death penalty, the Pope still carried political weight, do you think it completely unfeasible, the Pope wouldn't carry out his own Fatwa? (I say this lightly), the Pope after all did sanction Crusades by for the Templars and their wealth during the Crusades Richard the Lionheart vs Saladin?

Please, I can't continue trying to correct every uniformed situation you mention, just take a look at some research, before you make a comment on something? Not just religion, just take it as a general rule for life.
 
This would hold any bar if I was actually saying Christianity is the way to go. I think all Religions are bad for society*

Raz
I find it hard to fault here is the Buddhists in Bali.
 
Moosey said:
I think the idea that terrorists etc represent muslims is something of a red herring. Apart from organisations where there is a nominated head, there isn't a representative or group of representatives.

However, the terrorists are examples of muslims. In a system made up of individuals, we can look at examples and draw inferences about the behaviour of the system.

Every muslim who donates to charity and lives lawfully is an example of a muslim. Every muslim who beats his daughter for driving in a car with a man or rampages in the streets because of a cartoon is also an example of a muslim.

The key question is whether, looking at the system as a whole, Islam contains enough examples of extreme behaviour (or extreme behaviour in sufficient magnitude) as compared to other idiological groups to be considered problematic in itself. If you look at it this way, individual examples don't make much difference. The odd muslim nutter or the odd christian nutter or the odd atheist nutter don't tell you much about the system.

The important question is whether there is a critical mass of examples occurring within one group. Are you more likely to launch into religiously motivated crime if you belong to one group rather than another?
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Yes exactly, now I guess we need have paramaters for this question, are we talking since each religions inception or say in the last 100 years or so?
 
I think Razgriz you are simply suffering from media induced fear. These things have been going on for centuries. It's just that they are now being fed into your brain.

The Bear.
 
Well according to you, if they are killing in anger, then yes they are?

I honestly don't know why any Army is in Afghanistan at all. So I'm not going to talk about it xD
 
Not sure how old you were in 2001 Chadderz (Not sure if schools are teaching this yet) 9/11 > Al-Quaeda (Bin Laden) > Taliban > Afghanistan, not giving up/supporting Bin Laden, in go America.

They can't just leave a country after destroying the regime and many of the countries infrastructure, they have to stay make sure things go as smoothly as possible. If America and Allies were to leave straight after the dismantling of the Taliban, the country would be in civil war and strife for generations, they as the Worlds number one super power and world police have a responsibility in the international community to make sure they try and fix any wrongs they may have committed.
 
Fear would denote that I was actually afraid of something. Which I am not.
I am merely expressing the views of myself and those of whose work I have read. CZ see’s some flaws in what I have said and is making an effort to show were it is either wrong or misguided, which is quite useful.

This is the point of a debate for opposing views to meet.

You coming in with a nice generic statement, basically saying I am brainwashed is not useful, nor contributory to a discussion.

Raz
 
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Apostasy-in-Islam.pdf

Please read pages 28 on-wards if you want to get to the point.

http://apostasyandislam.blogspot.com/

This one too if you have the time =)

See, once again. its a matter of studying the Quran and Hadith. not simply googleing and quoting. Because if we keep going on like this, we can go on and back forever.

and as for the muslim CLeric thing. I can relate an account where a muslim cleric used a verse from the quran to convince people at the mosque ,Mostly Illiterate, that the holy prophet (P.B.U.H) was NOT HUMAN, but something near ANGELS AND GOD. which mind you is considered blashphemy at its brightest. So yeah.
funny thing is, 'Muslims' did not pay attention to this man's blasphemy, but want to STONE this little girl.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/christian-girl-accused-of-burning-pages-of-the-koran-in-pakistan-says-she-is-still-scared-for-her-life-8125976.html





according to me, they went there to protect their own country, (suppose that's up for debate as well, Meh.)
Which, is pretty much what Hazrat Ali did as well =)
 
Another statement of fear. It is very common for people to externalise their fear and insecurity to group or enemy. It is also common for others to manipulate that trait for their own ends. Hitler did the same thing with Jews.

It used to be communists here but when they went we needed a new enemy and muslims are a good one. Go spend time with muslims in your local community and you'll realise they are just like you.

The Bear.
 
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