I love religion it has absolutely nothing and no part to do with any injustice and violence against humanity, we are the sinners against ourselves we are the ones to blame religion has nothing to do with the failings of the human race.
How is that when people do good things their religion helps them do so and yet when they do bad things it's just humans being humans and people of their religion say they are doing it wrong?
Is religion a force for good (in which case it must also surely cause bad too) or just a neutral non-entity in people's lives that doesn't effect behaviour?
Its not based on an imagniary enemy. I do not even see them as an enemy.
I see attempts to apologise for those who do carry out heinous acts, and to claim they are not true believers utter BS though.
Here is a collection of data sources included for the UK mostly but some EU stats to.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality
- 0% of British Muslims found homosexuality acceptable.
- 3% found relations outside of marriage morally justifiable.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html
- 40% of this poll found Muslims wanting Sharia law in the UK.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-432075/Multiculturalism-drives-young-Muslims-shun-British-values.html
- 75% of young muslims want women to wear the veil (or at least hijab) compared to 19% of adult population.
As I’ve stated though, there are rather more concerning patterns emerging:
1) The extremist views of young Muslims in particular (aged 16-24)
– 33% claim that killing is justified if done to protect religion.
– 40 percent support the introduction of sharia for British Muslims.
– 33 percent support a worldwide Islamic caliphate based on sharia.
These results are from Muslims polled (16 – 24) for Policy Exchange:
-37 percent of young British Muslims want Sharia law in Britain.
-36 percent of young British Muslims think apostates should be killed.
-13 percent of young British Muslims said they “admired” Al Qaeda.
2) Support or Sympathy with Terrorism & 3) Conspiracy Theories
-According to an NOP survey, 2007:
-24 percent of British Muslims deny that the four British Muslim suicide bombers carried out the 7/7 attacks.
-24 percent of British Muslims believe the British government carried out the 7/7 attacks.
-According to Channel 4 Polls in August 2006, reported in both the Scotsman and the Financial Times:
-24 per cent agreed or tended to agree that the 7/7 bombings were justified.
-45 per cent think 9/11 was carried out by the US or Israel.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article729974.ece
-16 percent of British Muslims support suicide bombing in Israel.
-7 percent of British Muslims support suicide bombing in Britain.
4)The denial of Islam requiring scrutiny, and the will to suppress free speech and criticism.
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/291
-NOP Channel 4 polling came out with these results:
-33% of Muslims want Sharia Law as implemented in Saudi Arabia.
-28% of muslims agreed they dreamt of Britain becoming an Islamic State.
-78% wanted Danish cartoonist prosecuted.
-68% want prosecutions for insulting Islam.
-62% disagree with the freedom of speech if it insults religious sensibilities.
-50% said British people who insult Islam should be arrested and prosecuted.
-Between 5-9% say that violence to protect Islam is acceptable.
-Whilst 10-13% found that they “understood” why young muslims might want to become suicide bombers.
Edit: Now this sort of stuff can clearly be used for scaremongering. And is what I would class as your media induced fear. Its not the stuff I am talking about though and neither has anyone else.
Yes the Muslim community is being manipulated with fear just like you are. You obviously have very limited experience with the British Muslim community to not laugh at those surveys.
I laugh at the ignorance of people like the EDL. And any of my friends know making stupid comments better be backed by something credible because I hate intolerance.
But this conversation as much as you keep trying to push it towards, has not been about this. It was a discussion about defining true Muslims as well as whats at the core of those teachings.
So what percentage of Muslims in the UK would you say find homosexuality acceptable?
And would that percentage be higher or lower than the background percentage of the whole country?
Probably about the same as practicing Catholics and Jews who find homosexuality unacceptible. A bit higher than non-religious people. Though I know plenty of non-religious people who think homosexuality is unacceptible.
Your post is exactly the reason why Muslims in the middle east are so quick to respond in violence and frustration over tiny sparks. It's the absolute lack of understanding and willing to understand their culture and faith from the Western world that these issues continue to erupt.
First thing you need to understand about the Quran is that it was written in Arabic and is only ever translated from Arabic directly to another language, ie, Arabic to English, Arabic to Urdu, Arabic to Spanish, Arabic to Turkish, etc. The Arabic language is spoken completely differently than English as well as the context used to describe things. After having personally studied the Quran heavily for the past couple years, let me correct your statements and include the context in which they are used by referencing from the Yusuf Ali translations of the Quran which have been most widely accepted:
3:157: "And if ye are slain, or die, in the way of Allah, forgiveness and mercy from Allah are far better than all they could amass."
The meaning? The "way of Allah" doesn't only apply to war. It implies any act of worship. For example, Muslims are taught that if you were to die while in prayer, you would ascend directly to heaven. Waging war, let alone violence, is always referred to as the last option. When placed in harm's way and you can't get steer away from it, you are thus provided the right to defend yourself and your religion in the name of God. It's the same exact concept in Christianity and Judaism. Don't fool yourself.
2:216: "Jihad [Qital] is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But God knows, and you know not."
The meaning? The verse you posted is completely off. Most English translations used the term "Jihad", which is a holy war in the name of God. Just like the Christians waged the Crusades as their holy war, it's no different. They all believed their deaths would take them directly to heaven as well. Besides, even "Jihad" is a very weak translation since "Qital" refers specifically to "physical combat within a holy war". The verse, in CONTEXT, says one must learn to defend themself when needed. As for a holy war, no one can just get up and say "I hereby declare a holy war". Only the prophets of God, and the prophet Muhaofftopicd, peace be unto them, had that right. Therefore, it is not applicable today. Also, not all Arabic words have direct English translations.
4:103: "When ye pass (Congregational) prayers, celebrate Allah´s praises, standing, sitting down, or lying down on your sides; but when ye are free from danger, set up Regular Prayers: For such prayers are enjoined on believers at stated times."
Do I need to even correct your translation? Where the hell were you looking?
Some websites out there will just conveniently misconstrue a word here and there in a verse and voila, you have now just completely changed the entire meaning of the verse or even the chapter. It's called propaganda, you should be smarter than that. Islam incorporated one of the very first democracies in the world while Europe was still being ruled by kings, queens, emperors and was practically in a state of dictatorship. The Muslims ruled over Jeruselum for 800 years where Christians, Jews and Muslims all lived in harmony by the efforts of Sulaiman the Great. It wasn't until the unofficial separation of Israel and Palestine where Zionist-Jews took it back and began a bloody war against the Muslim portion of the population. This is still happening today and no solid efforts have been made to correct this issue. That's why you have a lot of pissed off Arabs and Muslims on the other side of the world. Their families are getting slaughtered every day yet they fail to appear on any American or British media.
Regardless, we are all human and full of emotion at the end of the day. The Quran speaks about never accusing someone without evidence and how Muslim rulers must always be just, not over stepping their authority, as well as forbidding rulership through lineage/bloodline, but only through election. Leave it alone, learn to open a book yourself and read it, Google and Wikipedia won't always give you reliable answers.
Science has had a huge impact on the world. From curing disease and making food more accessible to fundamentally changing how we see our universe. I see this as a great thing, and not something that should be held back because of archaic beliefs.
Later on in the longer clip, Mr DeGrasse goes on to say that he is concerned about what sort of brilliance was lost because they were discouraged from further scientific investigation.
People should be encouraged to examine how things work and be free to exchange ideas. This is not something that religion allows you to do.
Yea I already conceted this post of mine was trash, and I was at work at the time of writing so I stooped to
Though I am interested in your opinion of some of the verses I posted recently, I took those ones from the book of Sam Harris- "The Moral Landscape"
“God will mock them and keep them long in sin, blundering blindly along” (2:15). A fire “whose fuel is men and stones” awaits them (2:24). They will be “rewarded with disgrace in this world and with grievous punishment on the Day of Resurrection” (2:85). “God’s curse be upon the infidels!” (2:89)
“But the infidels who die unbelievers shall incur the curse of God, the angels, and all men. Under it they shall remain for ever; their punishment shall not be lightened, nor shall they be reprieved” (2:162)
Even if you just take 2 of the above as I understand its using your time and is taxing.
Well yes but science is just a tool. It's isn't the answer to everything. You are still required to give it a direction. Now I think that direction should come from a huumanist point of view but an elightened religious people could perform just a well.
Oh my bad. I'm also at work when I post here and didn't take the time to read the surplus amount of pages in this thread.
You know, I could definitely attempt to translate them according to how I perceive them. However, that would be irrelevant and would not solve the moral of the story. You're not asking because you're genuinely unsure of what they mean, but to compare how I translate the verses you just posted versus the verses (see what I did tharr?) I translated/explained from the Quran. My perception of the verses above will be based upon what I know at this very moment as well as the influences my social surroundings have laid on me, ie, spouse, family, co-workers, TV, media, movies, friends, etc. That would be insufficient because I have not taken the time out to understand the full context of the verses by reading the entire book in clarity and thus, any attempt of mine, no matter how accurate or inaccurate, would be irrelevant because it would be based solely on the appearance of the individual verses.