US embassies attacked

The main problem with Afghanistan is that it's a proxy war. The Afghans are just pawns to serveral larger powers fighting it out because they don't want a direct confrontation. It really won't matter what we do in there because when the heat goes up the Taleban fighters walk over the border and hide in neighbouring countries to re-appear somewhere else. Plus the constant influx of recruits from around the world makes it pretty much unwinnable in the context. The only way to resolve that conflict would be to widen the war and nobody wants that.

The Bear.
 
Agreed, its like the Spanish Civil war, it may be fought in Spain but it had many different players.

Pakistan is there, so are a lot of players from the ME. I think we are treating the symptoms not the cause of the disease. Like you said about widening it you would need to go across a few borders and hunt them out. But you see the reaction after a drone strike..

The Yemen is becoming a little breeding ground to, well it has been for some time but more and more prevelant I can imagine a boots on the ground situation there at some point.

Raz


Though my post was more about NATO allies ^_^
 
Well NATO as an organisation has always been ropey. It was really an anti-communist alliance that had to morph into a generic alliance. It's articles aren't really geared towards anti-terrorist actions. TBH Afghanistan is effectively a police action rather than traditional military action. Soldiers tend to perform fairly poorly in this role (Northern Ireland and Bosnia as prime examples). I would have created a new form of paramilitary police who have both the community, investigatory and special skills of a good police force backed by heavy support when necessary. Expecting soldiers to work in this environment isn't fair on them or they people the are policing.

The Bear.
 
I am still catching up on this thread after a weekend. I just want to point out that Americans were coming over to help you prior to the U.S. joining the war. A number of our pilots voluntarily came over on their own dime to help out. In WWI France and in WWII England.

http://www.taphilo.com/history/wwii/BofBamericanpilots.shtml

I admit I am no history professor, just a military man. I understand if you don't appreciate us. Heck we have people in our own country who don't appreciate us like that bunch who keep showing up to military funerals and spoiling them. We fight to protect everbody's freedom, whether they like us or not.
 
You have to remember Jon that we have a very different relationship with our military here. We frequently critic very harshly their performance and we make it well known that they are our servants and not the other ways around. There is a very important reason for this. The British military have been used are tools of conquest and state oppression again the people many times in history.

When someone start beating the "military should be thanked on bended knee" drum, the people of UK and Europe start to get very uncomfortable because we remember all to well what happens when you don't lock up your dogs.

Also the conditions the US demanded for prior to assistance in WWII still annoys alot of the blue bloods over here.

The Bear.
 
The day I am ordered to hurt my own people is the day the guy who gave that order get's to eat his own teeth.
 
Thanks for posting this, these cases go so easily missed.

"Ten American pilots flew with units under the coofftopicnd of RAF Fighter Coofftopicnd....

Its good to see that those 10 were awarded with the BoB clasp.

And what PB is quite true, you have to look into the Civil war we had here to find out more.

Its why the army lost the title Royal, due to many siding with parliament. Also look at the Bill of Rights of 1689.
Royal Navy,
Royal Air Force
British Army


"I understand if you don't appreciate us."
Though I don't detect a personal dig, I think its unfair to that considering iv stressed quite clearly my opinion is to the contrary.
I don't even think the extreme tory would deny benfits of the SR(Special Relationship)

But its when we get phrases like, our presence guarantee's your freedom
Or, you would all be speaking German if it wasn't for us.
That gets our, any nation's back up.

When you say "our presence guarantee's your freedom"
Statements like this are ill received. We have been holding our own for over 300 years as Great Britain, and longer than that as individual kingdoms, thank you kindly.

If you said that to an Israeli then fair enough.
-------

Interestingly if you look since after sort of 1812 period, (a war which some Americans still celebrate as a victory ), ever major power vs power war has resulted in either a win for the UK or the USA.
-Vietnam
-British getting pushed out by the Mahdi

So yea mixed relationship, both of helped each other a lot of times in many ways.

Raz
 
To be honest similarly Canadians went to Vietnam, fought in the Spanish Civil war and other campaigns.

Interestingly I often sit next to an ex-American in the pub who had his citizenship revoked for flying for the RAF in WW2 before the US had entered the war. Never quite understood it but they took away his citizenship because they said he had changed his allegiances to a foreign power. I wonder if this was only because he had immigrated to the US in the first place. I hope this wasn't the reward that American service personnel received for going off to fight for what they believed in.

So I also have to ask IJ whether you only mean that figuratively or literally? In the Phillipines they told me about how the US protected the country from the Spanish and then took away the country's sovereignty making it a protectorate of sorts. I know there are a few other countries that might be placed in a similar category. In Hawaii the US government over threw the government , at the behest of the Americans farming there, by sending the marines in and installing a puppet government. The monarchy that had been in place was recognized by the British and had ties to the UK (and you see that the state flag includes the Union Jack which is the British Flag). The locals were not protected if their interests were in competition with American interests.

Now I don't blame soldiers for any of this nonsense. I have had many in my family who enlisted and I had also considered doing so when younger. I have had family die in different campaigns.

I do blame politicians and historical revisionists for not showing that freedom is only protected when it suits others. Places like East Timor suffered for years and no one stood up to protect them Luckily that has changed. If there is oil or some other cash value involved then there is lots of interest. If not I don't see that people are quite so quick to protect liberty.

Rant over... excuse me but these points are worth mentioning.

LFD
 
Something I thought might be worth bringing up in military differences, in the UK we don't swear to a constitution or a flag or the people.

Here you can see an interesting contrast.
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

I... swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will, as in duty bound, honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors, in Person, Crown and Dignity against all enemies, and will observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors, and of the generals and officers set over me. So help me God.

Raz
 
It ought to be revised to say lawful orders. We are only to obey the lawful orders.
 
That would lead into the semantics of what law.
Laws of the country? International laws, Geneva convention etc
Though it is made clear through training to follow an illegal order against the law of armed conflict will end you up charged with war crimes...

Raz
 
I'd be careful Raz, he may be related to Frodo. No personal attacks to a Mod's relatives.



Sounds kinda like your proud of your country Raz, good for you!
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-19601824

Sir Salman Rushdie has said he does not think his 1988 novel The Satanic Verses would be published today because of a climate of "fear and nervousness".

The writer said the banning of his book in many countries and the subsequent threats on his life had created a "long-term chilling effect".

"A book which was critical of Islam now, would be difficult to be published, " he told the BBC's Will Gompertz.

The writer is set to release his memoirs, entitled Joseph Anton - a reference to his favourite authors Conrad and Chekhov - which tells of how he was forced underground in 1989 over his book.
 
To be fair I was responding to Instructor Jon's comments which I took to mean American involvement in preserving freedom.

Kosovo..

Do you mean this Kosovo :

NATO countries promoted the war in Kosovo as the first humanitarian war[78] based on short-term military reports and casualty reports that were later criticized as highly inaccurate.[79]
The Kosovo Conflict was the center of news headlines for months, and gained a massive amount of coverage and attention from the international community and media. The NATO bombing and surrounding events have remained controversial.[80]

It was a Nato exercise and has been criticised as reported in the Wiki report above. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War

Are you saying this was preservation of freedoms or what exactly please?

LFD
 
Sorry for the vagueness,

I was prompting it as an example of when intervention was not in the aim of achieving oil,mining rights etc.

There have been one or two others.. perhaps Sierra Leone,Bosnia and Herzegovina,and Operation Ocean Shield(though one could argue countering piracy is a purely selfish notion, they have helped non NATO members)

Raz
 
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