US embassies attacked

I haven't read the whole thread but I wanted to put a stop to this nonsense.

I am with Polar Bear 100%. I said true Muslims by meaning non-extremists; you know normal human beings. I should have not used that word if I realized that it would blow you mind away!

You're taking my words and twisting them to make your point. It's a common tactic when you're arguing for something that's blatantly wrong. I, among many others, responded to your posts point by point, and all you do is keep bringing up the same thing over and over again.
 
No im referring to when I said about Al Shibab and ETA, you said they are not true Muslims.

Did you not say that?

If you look at all the posts, there is conflicting view about "true Muslims", I think its a flawed term. But you said that they were not true Muslims but according to CZ's defnintion they are.

See?
 
Also, through many of the previous posts it has been agreed one man may read the Quran and understand it to mean one thing and another reads it and see's something else.

So a member of Al Shibab, can say you are not a "true" Muslim, if he feels you do not comply with the words in they way he understands him.
This is the problem

"you know normal human beings" this phrase is far to open ended to even go into.
I don't think it is normal for a human being to have a child and think.
"Right lets go on with mutilating the gentialia of the baby"

But followers of the faith that preach this do.

Raz
 
PAS,

I thought my post on this was sufficient, but I'll clarify.

If you converted to another religion (say from Islam to Christianity) because you believe that it's the right religion and Islam is wrong, I mean you researched it and reached that conclusion and knew it would be the right thing, then I find it HIGHLY UNLIKELY that God would punish you for it because He encouraged us to always seek the truth in the Qur'an. I specifically asked this question numerous times to Clerics and was given this answer.

If on the other hand, you know that Islam is the right religion, but decided to be an atheist (for whatever reason), then you'll be punished for it. It's quite simple.
 
What conflicting views? Show me? I can't find it.

Edit:

Is this it? Man, do you misquote on purpose?
 
Can you not see the inherent dichotomy therein?

If you find another "truth" then by definition the Qur'an is wrong - how can that NOT be self-evident?

And if it is "wrong" then it CANNOT be the word of the divine can it?
 
It's not brain washing because you're merely reading again to strengthen your understanding. You wouldn't read a Shakespeare play and understand it 100% in one attempt right? It's the same concept. Throughout my college years in English courses, we had to break down Shakespearian (sp?) literature to thoroughly understand them and their meanings.

Nonetheless, moving on to the article you posted. It actually made me giggle a bit. The attempt at understanding the Noble Qur'an appears to have been done in a much more open-minded manner than usual, albeit still off. Now there were a LOT of verses posted and whether I am at work or not, I couldn't possibly take the time out to translate each and every one in its proper context (referred to in Arabic as a "tafsir" -- would be best to search for a tafsir of a specific verse in Google when searching for a clear and unbiased understanding). I will, however, attempt to just apply my knowledge on the matter as a whole.

Yes, Muslims are in fact instructed to love Christians like their own siblings. Same with Judaism, but a much larger emphasis placed on Christians. The author of the article states his confusion on why the Qur'an appears to retract some of its sincere comments toward Christians.

The problem with reading translations of Arabic is that the language is very different from English in many, many ways. So translating appropriately is a very difficult task to accomplish. Essentially there are many more ways to describe something in the Arabic language than in English, hence all the different interpretations and misinterpretations. One of the duties of a Muslim in his/her life is to read the entire Noble Qur'an from start to finish in Arabic, not any other language, for this very reason.

Now as far the verses and their meanings. Lets travel back in time 1.2 millenia ago. The prophet Jesus, peace be unto him, performed many miracles and for so-and-so reasons became a threat to the Holy Roman empire. After being sentenced to death, Christians and Jews believe he died on the cross but Muslims believe God brought his living body to safety in Heaven and has always remained alive (hence being able to return as the Messiah during the End Times), and the person placed on the cross was an exact look-alike of the prophet. This is where difference #1 between Christians and Muslims stemmed from.

As we all know, A.D. is either Anno Domini or After Death in reference to the prophet Jesus, obviously making '0' the year he left this world one way or another. Exactly 312 years later, the Council of Nicaea declared he was the Son of God. Hence, you have the foundations of Catholicism and separation from mainstream Christianity. Who would have written about the true story of Jesus? As you said, the victors write history. Many people began worshipping him as the son of God or being God Himself, even praying toward idols of him.

This poses three huge problems in Islam. Islam does not recognize idolatry or polytheism as any form of truth and that God is only One with no children or equals. Some may disagree saying Catholicism isn't practicing idolatry, but when praying toward an idol depicting the appearance of a deity to either send/receive blessings, it becomes idol worship.

The prophet Muhaofftopicd, peace be unto him, was an illiterate yet highly intelligent and respected man of little stature in a small, remote village. One day, he was approached by the angel Gabriel during his routine trips to a nearby mountain to meditate. It was there in disbelief that he was forced to accept the words of God and slowly over time, was revealed the entire truth of the original and untainted Christianity now renamed as Islam. It became his duty to become a leader and spread that message to his community which was met with much hatred. Eventually, he and his followers fled to a nearby kingdom under the kingship of a righteous Christian king who placed them on trial along with those chasing Muhaofftopicd's followers. It was there they recited to the noble Christian king verses from the Qur'an about the virgin Mary and her son, the prophet Jesus. Astonished and baffled, he said the exact words while pointing at 2 rays of light peering into the court room, "Islam and Christianity are like these two rays of light. Parallel yet apart. I would not give these men to you for a mountain of gold" aimed toward the captors. It was here where the first interaction between Islam and Christianity was established and remained in positive relation until the Crusades a few centuries later.

With that said, now being able to properly answer your question, Islam recognizes that the Bible was eventually misconstrued and gone away from its original intent/meaning, creating different sects of Christians. This is why you have the noble Qur'an speaking highly of Christians in one verse and may appear to be speaking ill of them in another. The references are actually between true Christians who share near identical beliefs with Muslims and then the Christians who began following a new religion and adopted the prophet Jesus as God or the son of God.

Overall, just know that regardless of faith, Islam teaches us to become leaders and treat all people, even our enemies with the utmost respect. A tiny example from the Noble Qur'an on how it is against acting out of compulsion is during one of the Muslim's first few battles to defend themselves, a Muslim warrior knocked his enemy down to the ground and was about to slay him with his sword. His enemy, clearly defeated, expressed his utter disgust by spitting on the Muslim warrior's face. The warrior stopped for a moment and pulled his sword back and stepped away. The defeated man asked why he didn't slay him and the Muslim replied that if he killed him at that point, he would have committed a sin because his action would then have been out of anger and not duty.

By the way, this is the same for Jews. Islam does not recognize Zionist-Jews because they re-wrote the Torah in favor of their own personal gain, yet it does recognize original Judaism.
 
well, not necessarily true. We have the power of choice. We can CHOOSE something else because we believe it to be true but we can be mistaken.

Just because I believe something doesnt make it true and it doesnt make what I DONT believe in false. So the Qur'an COULD be the right and true word, yet I might mistakenly believe that the Tora is the way to go. Regardless of what I choose, if the Qur'an IS the right way, it will remain so.
 
You don't see CZ's post about if you follow the 5 pillars you are technicaclly a Muslim in the sense?

I am not being obtuse or lazy, its just im at work and it plays up when I do the quote thing, Ill be home soon so will recover the post for you.

Raz

P.S
Just some exerts from Wiki, I only copy and pasted the onces which cite sources.

It seems quite a polarising issue


Abu Hanifa and his followers refused the death penalty for female apostates, supporting imprisonment until they re-embrace Islam. Hanafi scholars maintain that a female apostate should not be killed because it was forbidden to kill women by the Islamic prophet Muhaofftopicd, and because women are unlikely to take up arms and endanger the community.

Others believe that the death penalty can only be applied when apostasy is coupled with attempts to "harm" the Muslim community, rejecting the death penalty in other cases. These include,[1][18][19] Ahmad Shafaat,[20] Jamal Badawi,[10] Yusuf Estes,[21] Javed Ahmad Ghamidi,[22] and Maliki jurist Abu al-Walid al-Baji.

Indian preacher Zakir Naik stated that if a former Muslim speaks against Islam then that is considered as treason and punishable by death in a country ruled by Islamic law. He also stated that he does not know of any country which is ruled by 100% Islamic law.

Muhaofftopicd Al-Munajid the owner, writer and administrator for the popular islam-qa.com site advocates that judgement stating that leaving them alive "may encourage others to forsake the truth".[30]

Contemporary reform Muslims such as Quran Alone intellectuals Ahmed Subhy Mansour,[31] Edip Yuksel,[32] and Mohammed Shahrour[33] have suffered from accusations of apostasy and demands to execute them, issued by Islamic clerics such as Mahmoud Ashur, Mustafa Al-Shak'a, Mohammed Ra'fat Othman and Yusif Al-Badri.[34][35][36]
 
So all the members of Al Shibab, ETA and the mobs who broke into the girls house and were calling for her punishment are not true muslims?

I may not be making my point clear and im sorry if thats the case.
What im saying is, you cannot categoracly say "They are true muslims"
"They are not true Muslims"
What auhtority do you have to decide that?
If they follow the fundemental pillars, and intereperet some of the Quran's teaching differently than you, how does this make them less a true Muslim?

The phrase is flawed, that is all I was saying.
Raz
 
So ergo God/Allah will punish you

The point I was making is that you cannot according to Islamic doctrine find "another truth" because there is no other truth accroding to the same doctrine - so the statement made was patently false

This does not even speak to the veracity of the belief, more the cogency
 
Bravo to Sandninjer, I wanted to go down the council of Nicea route, but didn't want to derail this into comparative religions. Christianity vs Islam etc.

@Razgriz, one of my earlier statements to you still holds true. You fail to understand or read the posts people are responding with, or you choose to ignore them?

I said technically, yes they are Muslims, just as technically someone who accepts Jesus Christ as the son of God and the holy trinity as a Chrisitian.

I then mentioned the 70 major sins in Islam compared with the 7 deadly sins in Christianity.

I mentioned specifically 2. Murder and 29. Suicide.

I also mentioned people using excuses committing atrocious acts in the name of religion. Technically communism works. Warrior highlighted that particular comment from me but still you fail to comprehend the message?

I also covered and you as much admitted your view on Apostates and Islam was misconstrued, I also explained the Shariah judicial system in laymen's terms, explained the issue of no true "Shariah" council existing, and you just pointed to a comment from Zakir Naik, which doesn't support your argument. I or no one else here once claimed that death of Apostates was a black and white issue, and I also mentioned different governing bodies using "Shariah" to meet their own reasoning. Why are you not getting this?

You seem to ignore answers given and points being made and keep coming back to "true Muslims" and "death to apostates". You then seem to post videos that you haven't watched, but expect us to, or post pastes of links you have copied, that you haven't even read, and if you have misunderstood, because the last comments about apostates didn't support your argument, and Zakir Naik basically corroborated what I already explained to you.
 
Ah, ok, I think I see where you're going. But you're NOT finding another truth, are you? Simply because you assume you have, doesnt make that assumption truth. Islam may still BE the truth. I think you're overlooking human fallibility. BJJ may be the greatest martial art ever, but simply because someone convinces me to get into Shotokan, for example, doesnt mean that BJJ isnt still the greatest martial art ever.

Perception doesnt equal truth is what I'm trying to say, I guess.

Or have I misunderstood you, Hannibal?
 
Let me ask you something. Would you follow something that you don't believe is true? Rhetorical question, no need to answer it. With that said, Muslims, like many other faiths and religions, believe that what they follow is the eternal and divine truth. In that regard, Muslims believe that God sent a message to Man on how to better himself through divine laws and morals. So then why accept that a derailed former message of God or even an entirely incorrect belief should be accepted in Islam?

This brings me to my next point. What do I mean by "accepted in Islam"? Regardless of what your belief is, Islam teaches to always protect the innocent, respect your neighbors, and strive to better your community, regardless of if your community hates you or not. Just because it's "not accepted" doesn't mean us crazy, psychotic Muslims will behead you with a scimitar and post a video of it on the internet, it just means we don't religiously accept that as an act of a believer. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Sure, there are extremist and highly uneducated Muslims out there that will let their emotions take charge of their religious beliefs and claim they have the right to hurt or kill any apostates or non-Muslims, but that's not limited only to Islam and never has been.
 
Very perceptive, I'm glad you caught onto that. That declaration by the council is a HUGE factor into a lot of history following it... but then it gets crazy and weird, and as you said, best to avoid it.
 
You may be getting confused - I was specifically addressing the point raised above stating



I was pointing out the inherent paradox in that position
 
My apologies, did not see that part.

Understandably, apostasy is always a very difficult topic to address, for any Islamic scholar even, because of people's sensitive emotions and opinions on the matter. While I'm no scholar, I can tell you this much...

If you truly believed Christianity is the one and only true faith, then what's there to fear? If you've left the "untruth" behind, you're now safe from it right? Perhaps you're referring to what action a completely Shar'iah-based governing body would take against you? If that's the case, it really depends on many factors such as sects and/or schools of thought (Fiqhs), each who have their own interpretations of highly controversial matters pertaining to Islam. So if a Muslim living under the authority of a Shar'iah-based government were to apostate to Christianity (for example), then that's exceeding the boundaries provided unto Muslims because you have therefore allowed your uncertainty and questions be the source for your failure to understand.

We understand the Noble Qur'an to be in absolute perfection and therefore view leaving the word of God, the Noble Qur'an, as an act of apostasy, so by leaving it, you've essentially damned yourself.

Me, however, I did leave Islam because I questioned it "too much". Several years later, I took out the time to actually study it and decided it was in fact the divine truth. If people are allowed to question everything, it'll help them understand it. Just know that there are many laws in Shar'iah, in Islam, that seem very harsh and barbaric to the modern world, but what took me a very long time to realize about Islam and Shar'iah is that the purpose behind punishment isn't merely to serve justice in an appropriate and forgiving manner. It's to scare the crap out of people to keep them away from committing crimes. In Mecca, the shops remain open during times of prayer where the streets practically clear up and the shop owners run along to pray as well yet no one steals anything. Why? Because if caught, they'll get their hand cut off. Every now and then, on rare occasion, someone will steal there and will in fact have their hand cut off. But was the intention of that law achieved? Yes. Much lower rate of theft. Obviously the harsher laws only apply to clearly unethical practices like rape, theft, adultery, etc.

It is also up to us, or those with any authoritative power concerning a matter, to enforce these laws/rules on convicted culprits - a process which typically involves trial and multiple witnesses. We're taught it's always better to be merciful and will in fact be rewarded in doing so. You may or may not agree but that's the best answer I can and will give you.




lol. No problem. Guess I got carried away writing. Am I a valued member yet? Hmph, guess not. Fear not my Ninjutsu forum, I will join you soon.

After tonight in EST, I'll be away on vacation for the weekend so I hope my essay will be able to shed a little light on the understanding of Christianity through Islamic history.
 
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